Late or early steering linkage and why?
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Thread: Late or early steering linkage and why?

  1. #1
    Junior Member Copper Dart 440's Avatar
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    Late or early steering linkage and why?

    Going BIG RB (does the "R" in RB mean REAL BIG?) in my 360 727 '70 Swinger. I have both early and late steering set up's. I'm removing the power steering and going manual too. What would you choose and why? Can I use my original torsion bars with the big block? Also, I have a later spool type v8 K member too but I think keeping the Biscuit type is my best bet. What say you?
    Tri Y's and the custom biscuit adapter mount's from Schumacher.

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    BBD LEGEND qkcuda's Avatar
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    I would use the 73 and later steering linkage. The early linkage has the pitman and idler arm nuts pointing up. (a little hard to see in this picture) The later ones are pointing down and clear headers and the oil pan better. You may even want to use the late K frame and see what Schumacher has available for the spool mounts. It may eliminate having to cut the mount for oil pump clearance and add a torque strap.
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  5. #3
    Junior Member Copper Dart 440's Avatar
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    Thanks, I was leaning to the late style also.
    I will contact Schumacher to ask their views of the spool verses the biscuit "K" frames.
    Floor shift is a must? Is there no room for the column shifted auto?

  6. #4
    Full Member orangejuice360's Avatar
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    I see you are new here, Welcome!! There is a wealth of knowledge here on this site in old posts, and old mopar guys.... I often do searches to stay inspired in my project, many of the questions asked by new guys are repeats. No offense to you by any means, just trying to help you get your answers quickly...many, many great people that are experts on chrysler products here that are very willing to help.

  7. #5
    Administrator Jim_Lusk's Avatar
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    If your later k-member is for a V8 check out the tech pages for hwo to build a copy of the old Direct Connection k-member. Save yourself some money on mounts.

    http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/dck.shtml

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    QUOTE=Copper Dart 440;154126]Going BIG RB (does the "R" in RB mean REAL BIG?)It means raised block. It has a 1/4 inch higher deck.[ in my 360 727 '70 Swinger. I have both early and late steering set up's. I'm removing the power steering and going manual too. What would you choose and why? Later, for the other previously posted reasons. Can I use my original torsion bars with the big block? Yes, you can, but, the bigger aftermarket bars improve the ride quality immensely. Also, I have a later spool type v8 K member too but I think keeping the Biscuit type is my best bet. What say you?
    Tri Y's and the custom biscuit adapter mount's from Schumacher. That's fine. There is no right way or wrong way. Some like elephant ears because it gives some extra room for headers and such. [/QUOTE]

  9. #7
    Junior Member Copper Dart 440's Avatar
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    Yep, newbee here!
    Thanks for all the great advise. I guess i'll have alot of questions repeated to you all if I fail to find them in the archives.
    I will be changing to the Later steering linkage and as for the torsion bars, I sort of felt that I could easly get away with using my small block torsion bars because, as I have been told, the 440 is aprox 125 lbs more than the SB. and I will be removing the factory a/c and power steering units from the car plus I am going with an aluminum water pump and housing, radiator, pulleys, intake manifold and tri y's verses iron manifolds on the RB. I am hoping this Big Block diet will be enough to offset the change. What say you?
    I will look into the "K" frame mods. Thanks again!

  10. #8
    Administrator Jim_Lusk's Avatar
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    For me a street car needs to corner reasonably well. Unless the car is equipped with, at least, 340 torsion bars and a sway bar it would need to be upgraded. That's just me, though. Others will say their car handles fine with 318 bars. It's all a matter of what you want the car to do.

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    I agree with Jim, especially the first part, and they are useable. However, new tortion bars aren't just bigger, they have a higher spring rate which speeds up the frequency in the time it takes for them to return back to ride height upon either compress or rebound. Stated in another way: The stock bars will exhibit prolonged body roll, it will take the car longer to recover its level stance after turning a hard corner. For use on the road they really improve handling without the cost of a rough ride.

    I installed the 1.030" bars on my Dart and it removes all the fatigue in driving, we don't have to hold on in corners. Of course, I do have Honda Del Sol seats (designed by Recaro). The side bolstering keeps you from sliding around.

    I started out using the stock bars, but after a couple of months of driving they had to go.
    NEW DOESN'T MEAN GOOD, IT JUST MEANS IT HAS NEVER BEEN USED BEFORE!

    EFFICIENCY IS A STATE OF MIND AND IT EXISTS NOWHERE ELSE.

    Some days all you can do is smile and wait for some kind soul to come pull your ass out of the bind you've gotten yourself into.

  12. #10
    Junior Member Copper Dart 440's Avatar
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    Thanks for the great info!
    The best part of this conundrum is that it's not too difficult to change the torsion bars later if the ride needs help.
    On the issue of the "K" member, the modification to copy the vintage DC big block "K" frame doesn't seem too difficult but the Schumacher adapter mounts for the spool verses the biscuit type "K" frame seem to be my best bet.

  13. #11
    Junior Member Copper Dart 440's Avatar
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    Is it true? spool style big block K Members make the engine sit higher? Can you say "CAN OF WORMS?"
    1970 Dart Swinger.
    Power by a Dan Costello @ Performance Only Built '67 440, with 440 Source Stealth heads, Harland Sharp Roller Rockers, Quick Fuel Hot Rod Series on top of a Eddy intake covering a CC Nostalgia 484".
    727 late deep pan, 10" converter, 8-3/4 489 3.55 posi, D/C Hemi/BB "K"Member, Late Disc's, Tubular Upper "A" Arms, Manual Steering, Ceramic Schumacher Tri-Y's, MSD 6a, Billet Dist ... grocery getter. (wish list; Voodoo roller cam set, MSD Atomic Fuel injection)

  14. #12
    Administrator Jim_Lusk's Avatar
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    Nope, not true. The DC k-member puts the engine in the stock location. Some people have forced a big block onto unmoved saddles and created a problem, but no the engine does not sit any higher than it should.

  15. #13
    Full Member blue44067's Avatar
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    a friend of mine put a 383 in his wife's Scamp the wrong way, onto stock location v8 spool mounts with an extended trans mount. It was the easy way, but the engine is too far forward by about 3 inches, exactly what you don't want riding on stock bars. It is fine in a straight line, other than limited traction due to weight being transferred forward. Faster than the 318 was, once it hooks up.
    Last edited by blue44067; 02-15-2013 at 06:11 PM.

  16. #14
    Junior Member Copper Dart 440's Avatar
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    Is there a difference in the pitman arm spline early to late? Maybe better said... Are the manual steering gear boxes the same? I have a early assembly that seems less worn than the later one. I'm not sure if it is difficult to swap the later style arm onto the early one.
    1970 Dart Swinger.
    Power by a Dan Costello @ Performance Only Built '67 440, with 440 Source Stealth heads, Harland Sharp Roller Rockers, Quick Fuel Hot Rod Series on top of a Eddy intake covering a CC Nostalgia 484".
    727 late deep pan, 10" converter, 8-3/4 489 3.55 posi, D/C Hemi/BB "K"Member, Late Disc's, Tubular Upper "A" Arms, Manual Steering, Ceramic Schumacher Tri-Y's, MSD 6a, Billet Dist ... grocery getter. (wish list; Voodoo roller cam set, MSD Atomic Fuel injection)

  17. #15
    Administrator Jim_Lusk's Avatar
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    There are two sizes, but I don't know what all came with each. I know that later power gears are larger than the early gears (both power and manual). I'm not sure about the later manual gears.

  18. #16
    Junior Member Copper Dart 440's Avatar
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    Mr Lusk,
    Do you know if the difference (early vs late manual steering box's) is very noticeable? I put a crescent wrench on the exposed shaft between the arm and gear box and it seems to be the same diameter. I would be surprised if they made different splines for such similar size shafts. I will post findings as soon as I figure out how to remove the arms. I suspect a specialized style of puller may be necessary.
    Last edited by Copper Dart 440; 02-18-2013 at 12:38 PM.
    1970 Dart Swinger.
    Power by a Dan Costello @ Performance Only Built '67 440, with 440 Source Stealth heads, Harland Sharp Roller Rockers, Quick Fuel Hot Rod Series on top of a Eddy intake covering a CC Nostalgia 484".
    727 late deep pan, 10" converter, 8-3/4 489 3.55 posi, D/C Hemi/BB "K"Member, Late Disc's, Tubular Upper "A" Arms, Manual Steering, Ceramic Schumacher Tri-Y's, MSD 6a, Billet Dist ... grocery getter. (wish list; Voodoo roller cam set, MSD Atomic Fuel injection)

  19. #17
    Administrator Jim_Lusk's Avatar
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    The difference is fairly large. You'd notice it with that measurement.

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  21. #18
    Junior Member Copper Dart 440's Avatar
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    just had to post this
    Attached Images
    1970 Dart Swinger.
    Power by a Dan Costello @ Performance Only Built '67 440, with 440 Source Stealth heads, Harland Sharp Roller Rockers, Quick Fuel Hot Rod Series on top of a Eddy intake covering a CC Nostalgia 484".
    727 late deep pan, 10" converter, 8-3/4 489 3.55 posi, D/C Hemi/BB "K"Member, Late Disc's, Tubular Upper "A" Arms, Manual Steering, Ceramic Schumacher Tri-Y's, MSD 6a, Billet Dist ... grocery getter. (wish list; Voodoo roller cam set, MSD Atomic Fuel injection)

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