Alterkation and headers

[rtexpress]

I am looking for some input from you folks out there that have installed the Alterkation system in a Dart with either a 440 or 383 using either indy or eddy heads.  I am looking very closely at purchashing one of these setups for my daughters 74 Dart drag car and am wonding what headers will work with the above engines.  If I install the Alterkation suspension I will remove the inner fenders and the stock shock towers since they are no longer needed, I was thinking with those mods plus not having to worry about the torsion bars or the steering box that it opens it up to a larger number of header types.  Also how do you search on this forum I've been looking around and can't figure out how to do it.

Thanks!

[MikeR]

Just to tag along, I'm also wondering the same thing.  I have an RB (493 cid, with Eddy's) block with an altertation, I'm using schumaker headers and it runs out of steam at around 4500 rpm, I'm thinking it's the small headers and 750 carb.  I'm waiting to find out what headers work in the 2" + sizes and don't extend below the bodyline.  Also, will this change kill my bottom end.  So apparently the TTI's work but how low do they drop down?

[abqdart]

Mike that thing is sweet looking

[MikeR]

Thanks!

[caper]

I have TTI 2" headers in my dart with a 496 based 440 with eddy heads. I will try to post a pic if it don,t work go to the gallery check the pics off my car ( caper). driver side has tons off room with the steering shaft out. Pass side a little hard getting in , you have to lift the motor on the pass side a bit. one off the pipes are very close to the inner fenderwell , not touching but close. I dented that pipe a small bit for more clearence , you can,t see the dent. Pass side collector is a little high back at the trans crossmember , you will have to bend the exhaust pipe a small bit to get by the crossmember , no big deal.

[caper]

If someone knows how to post pics from the gallery ( caper ), it will give them an idea how low the headers sit.

[MikeR]

Cool, I removed that crossmember so no worries.

[Blue]

I run an alterkation and a 440. I mocked up a 440 block with stage 6 heads in the car and my 2"tti's fitted but only cleared the pass side shock tower by thou's. What I forgot to check and I suspect will be a problem is starter clearance. Any head with raised exhaust ports is liable to have issues with the starter hitting the headers. I'm pretty sure that any header that will physically fit the engine would fit the chassis if you had an alterkation, the only other problem might be the steering column but that's relatively easy to sort.

[MikeR]

It looks like from pictures that the TTI's tuck up to the body pretty well, is this true?  I don't want to see the exhaust from the side if at all possible.

I have the eddy heads and the exhaust ports are not raised so the starter shouldn't be an issue.

[Blue]

I would say the tti's sit higher than most but if you mount a 3" system to them you will still see it from the side, you'd have to run 2.5" tube and tuck it up real close to the floor to hide it behind your frame connectors I would think.

[MikeR]

I have a 3" system now with schumachers, my flowmasters are tucked up into the 4 link cage and the tailpipes stay above the rear valence and turn down at the end...the system can't be seen without laying on the ground...

[qkcuda]

Mike, just a thought.  My Hedman B-bodies sit tighter to the floor than any header I ever had on a small block.  Do they make a larger diameter header that is similar in shape?

[rtexpress]

Thanks guys for the information I looked through the gallery at some of the cars with the Alterkation I'm going to measure my son's Challenger to see how much diffrence there is in the frame spacing.  Like I said the inner fenders and as much of the shock towers as possible will be removed so I should have a lot of room there.  The only thing is how much less spacing there is between the frames might cause some grief fitting 2"+ headers expecally with a 440.  If I use the 440 it has the Indy SR heads so I suspect the raised exhaust port may have an effect on the header I use.  If I build stroked 383 then it will probably have Eddy heads and I'm sure it would be an over all better fit so I'm giving that a lot of consideration also.  Since this is going to be a dedicated race car I'm going to look at some ways to modify the tunnel to get better access to the drive train.  I have a friend who would like the factory disc brake setup off this car to put on a 68 Barracuda will this swap work?  I'm going to call RMS today and get more information from them on this conversion before I decide how I want to go.  Thanks again for the help I'm sure I'll have other questions as this project begins to move along. 

[rtexpress]

Well it sounds like the Alterkation system should be here in a couple of weeks so I've got to make a header choice pretty soon now.  The 383 I was going to use is already .060 over and my engine builder sonic tested it and said it to thin for the power we'd probably put out and could end up with a split clyinder.  Well that kind of threw a wrench in the works so I've got 2 choices either find a 383/400 block or go to plan B and put my 650HP 440 with SR heads in.  I didn't see anything that TTI made in 2" that would work with the RB/SR setup, I'm a little leary to just order a set and hope the fit after I remove the interfenders and shock towers.  The other choice is to go with the Hooker fenderwell style and live with the tire clearance issue, with this engine I'm going to really need to go with 2" headers to get the HP out of it I know the Hookers would give me easy access to the starter also but I may have to redo the front roll cage support bars to clear them.  From a money stand point it would be cheaper to use the engine I have since it will need a WP, Carb and Headers just like the 383 would have.  I'll post some pictures as this project moves along it should be fun!

[caper]

TTI 2" headers eddy heads

[540dust]

I have the 2 1/8 TTI step header on my B motor with Indy heads and a Powerglide trans and an AlterK.  I also have an Indy Maxx block which is more than an inch wider at the pan rail, this required me to move the bottom of these headers outward.  I did this by sandwiching a set of header flanges between the headers and the heads that were angle milled 3.5 degrees to move the bottom of the headers out away from the side of the block.  Its kind of a tight fit still but this is the first set of off the shelf headers that I've used that required absolutely no fitment dings or clearance bends or modifications.   

[4spdfury]

why dont you sleeve the block on the 383.

[fasttcars]

why dont you sleeve the block on the 383.

just for the cost of sleeves you could buy a couple blocks.....

[rtexpress]

I have the 2 1/8 TTI step header on my B motor with Indy heads and a Powerglide trans and an AlterK.  I also have an Indy Maxx block which is more than an inch wider at the pan rail, this required me to move the bottom of these headers outward.  I did this by sandwiching a set of header flanges between the headers and the heads that were angle milled 3.5 degrees to move the bottom of the headers out away from the side of the block.  Its kind of a tight fit still but this is the first set of off the shelf headers that I've used that required absolutely no fitment dings or clearance bends or modifications.   

Both you and Caper have sweet rides, yours looks like it will be similar to what my daughters car will be like.  Can you get to the starter or it a major pain?  When I do hers I'm going to remove the shock towers my roll bar extention tubes have other bracing.   Did you replace your trans tunnel or is it still stock?  I was planning on replacing ours with a larger aftermarket style just to get some room in there to work.  If that Max block will fit then I shouldn't have much of an issue with the 440 and SR's going in.  Thanks guys for the information its been helpful!

[540dust]

Thanks.  The driver side header will have to come off to get the starter out.   Yes if these headers fit the maxx block you shouldnt have a problem with the stock block although, with my headers installed with the bottom moved out I have more clearance between the collectors and the trans pan and I am running a powerglide.  I believe with a 727 and the headers bolted right up to the head (not tipped out) the clearance between the collectors and the trans pan may be tight.  I like leaving the shock towers in so that the upper control arm mounts are braced to the front cage support, but if you removed the tower and replaced it with a fabricated brace to the front cage support you could gain quite a bit more room beside the block.

[rtexpress]

Thanks.  The driver side header will have to come off to get the starter out.   Yes if these headers fit the maxx block you shouldnt have a problem with the stock block although, with my headers installed with the bottom moved out I have more clearance between the collectors and the trans pan and I am running a powerglide.  I believe with a 727 and the headers bolted right up to the head (not tipped out) the clearance between the collectors and the trans pan may be tight.  I like leaving the shock towers in so that the upper control arm mounts are braced to the front cage support, but if you removed the tower and replaced it with a fabricated brace to the front cage support you could gain quite a bit more room beside the block.

I talked with Bill at RMS when I ordered his system and I asked him about bracing the upper A-arm mounts and he didn't think it was necessary unless I misunder stood him.  Although I'm like you I believe that it is a good idea to brace them it will just save on the components so the braces will be placed for maxium clearance.  When I get mine done I'll post some pictures, I will be using a 727 and on my sons 70 Challenger with Hedmans Hustlers the passenger side collector is right against the pan.  I may end up moving my bars unlike yours mine are straight up and down and not leaning out wards like yours and this may cause me some clearance problems but when we put them in I wasn't planning on installing a BB.  I'm bringing her car in to the shop tomorrow and start pulling the SB so as soon as the AlterKation installed and the inner fenders removed I'm going to pull the 440 out of the corner stick a empty 727 case on it and mock it up so I need to get some headers comes real soon.  To bad about the starter but I was kind of figuring that was what it was going to be like it a PIA with the SB that in there now.

[540dust]

Cool, Yeah it is a bummer about the starter but, I have always had headers that allowed me to remove the starter and sacraficed turning radius and performance to do so.  You know in twenty years I have never had to replace the starter on the race car, so now Im sure it willl go out, but I will not have to worry about turning radius again.

[rtexpress]

Turning radius was one of my worries with fender well headers, I've only been racing for 7 years but until last season I hadn't replace a starter at the track either, but I'll give up easy starter access for improved performance.  I had a powermaster on my 440 and when I started it to pull out of the staging lanes it broke the E clip on the shaft and tossed the bendix it did start made a bunch of racket, I was able to make the run (TT) but had to change it out over lunch.  We found the bendix about 30 feet away laying on a gravel road I was just thankful it didn't hit any one.   Thanks again for help!

[rtexpress]

Cool, Yeah it is a bummer about the starter but, I have always had headers that allowed me to remove the starter and sacraficed turning radius and performance to do so.  You know in twenty years I have never had to replace the starter on the race car, so now Im sure it willl go out, but I will not have to worry about turning radius again.

I'm curious when you built your car did you modify the transmission tunnel?  I was looking at my car and trying to decide if its worth the work to cut out the old tunnel and install an aftermarket one.  I have the one out of my 71 Challenger drag car and set it in there to see if it was practical to do with out removing the stock floor pans.  I think it could be done but it's going to take some fabrication and I don't know if the end would justfiy the work it would take.  Its just a pain to work on these cars with the limited firewall clearance which will be a little better with a BB having the dist up front plus this cars got a little more room than most since it was a 4 speed.  In any case the fun has started I pulled the front end sheet metal off today and hopefully buy this weekend I'll have the drive train pulled and start removing the fender wells.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[caper]

If I was doing mine again I would modify the trans tunnel. When I put the trans sheild on I had interferrance. I had to modify my sheild. I know you are not allowed to modify the sheild but I had to for the beng. Also I would modify the pass side iner fender for header clerance.

[rtexpress]

If I was doing mine again I would modify the trans tunnel. When I put the trans sheild on I had interferrance. I had to modify my sheild. I know you are not allowed to modify the sheild but I had to for the beng. Also I would modify the pass side iner fender for header clerance.

I am using a Stroud blanket on this car and it fits ok but its tight, I have CSR shield but there wasn't any way that was going to fit with out modification it didn't fit all that well in my boys 70 Challenger.   The bad thing about doing mods to the sheilds is that they can't be recertified which sucks because they aren't cheap!  My main complaint is the fact it a PIA to get the bell housing bolts out and you can't put the engine/trans in together, I cut some holes in the firewall for bolt access which helps and made cover plates to go on them but it still a pain.  I'm debating on what to do with the innerfender wells my first thought is to just cut them out along with the shock towers, but I hate to butcher any of these old cars.  My sons car is a 70 Challenger and I've been careful not to modify it to the point where it couldn't be put back on the street someday if needed.  I know 74 Darts even with 4 speeds aren't overly valuable but who knows in the future, in any case any thing I remove I keep so some day if someone wants to they can put it all back together.   I know at the least the passenger side inner fender will have to be modified for clearance or its going to be a pain every time I want to work on it and limit what kind of engine header combo's I can use.  E bodys are so much nicer to work with when it comes to BB but it's getting hard to get a hold of one thats not junk for a decient price.  I love they way you did the underside of your car thats really nice!  Were did you get your TTI's from?

[caper]

I got them fom Scott Brown at Straightline Performance .

[540dust]

I did not put in a new trans tunnel, but I did some clearancing to the original.

[Gospel Runner]

Caper the underside of your car is mint. I can only imagine the time and money that your have put into that beautiful ride. How about showing us the rest of the car? I believe any good exhaust guy can fit a 3" scavenging system as close to the belly as you want it. In my area (CT) the mad hatter muffler technition is into that kind of stuff and he is real good. They take care of your car as though it belonged to them. They let you come into the shop and discuss exactly what you want and where it will go. Good luck, you have a fine machine there!

[caper]

I have my 3" exhaust installed already , exits at the rear bumper with a X pipe. Looks real good. The top side of the car is epoxy primer , all body work is done. ( no rust or patches) holes where chrome mouldings were removed were welded and finished. The roof is painted , black vinly top going on it. Dart stripe going on back of it. It has been modify , instead of " Dart Sport" or " Dart Swinger" It reads " Dart Stroker" got it from Phoenix Graphix. The garage is a real mess , I will tidy it up this weekend and take more pics. Thanks for the comments , comments like yours keep me motivated

[dustertogo]

 You don't see cars like that in Cape Breton very much  . I grew up there so I know. Beautiful Dart you have there buddy.

[rtexpress]

Well the Alterkation setup came and I must say I am very impressed with the workmanship and engineering that Bill has put in to this system it is really first rate!  I installed the cross member with the rack and dropped in my spare 440 with the external oiling system installed and an empty 727 trans case to check clearances.  I was very pleased with the way I could install the engine and trans together in the car this was something I was unable to do with the LA and transmission together with the old K-member.  I only wish I had some headers here to do some testing with, I have decided to build a stroked 383 with Indy SR heads for this car and keep my 440 a spare to use in my car.  So I'm going to be getting some TTI's ordered here first of the week, I am still considering cutting out the inner fenderwells although I probably wouldn't be required with the 383 this is a race car and weight and ease of access are things I need to look at.  I'm going to pull the engine out next week and get every thing painted the start putting it in for good, I though about powder coating it being a race car I just don't see the need.  The only transmission tunnel mods I will probably make will be to cut out the pinch weld and revamp my firewall opening for bolt access as easy as it was to install the engine I would probably just pull it to remove the trans.  Guy's thanks for all the help I'll let you know how it all comes together.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Bill_Reilly]

I see it takes 2 barcode stickers to make over there I hate it when UPS puts stickers on the metal... Maybe I'll use a longer piece of cardboard...

[rtexpress]

I see it takes 2 barcode stickers to make over there I hate it when UPS puts stickers on the metal... Maybe I'll use a longer piece of cardboard...

I do to but a little thinner or goo gone will take care of them, at least they didn't wrap them with 10 feet of tape like some of the stuff I've gotten!  Once again Bill nice job I'm looking forward to seeing how it works this up coming race season.

[rtexpress]

Here's the latest update on my search for headers, my 2" TTI's arrived today and I set about seeing if they would fit the 440 with SR heads in the 74 Dart.   Well much to my surprise I believe that will a little work they will!   The drivers side will go in with the starter in place thanks to the torsion bars being out of there and the extra clearance provided by the Alterkation although I couldn't get the passengerside in all the way because they were hitting the shock tower.  The steering will clear with some modifcations to the mounting holes on the fire wall attachment on the column, grinding out the holes to off set them about 1/4" - 3/8" will alllow the steering shaft to clear the tubes just like Bill said it would.   The pinch weld that goes across the bottom of the car were the tunnel/floor pans are mated to the fire wall will have to be trimmed slightly it barely clears now and I would feel better with a little more room to allow the engine to move.  The only other thing on the drivers side is the starter, the wire that runs between the solinoid and the motor makes contact with the header pipe were it connects to the motor, this was with a Mopar mini starter although not one of the ones TTI recommends.  I had a Powermaster starter out in the trailer so I tried that one, it's a little smaller starter and it was better but was still just touching the pipe in the same place I have a picture showing this.  I'm going to check into some other starters but if needed I'll have to slightly ding the tube in order to get the clearance I need and it won't take much it appears to be just the "boot" making contact but thats still to close.   Another thing is that with the SR heads the header is raised and moved  the header about 3/4" so the top of the collector flange is now behind the torsion bar/trans mount cross member so it would probably be pretty hard to hook up an exhaust system to it but since this is a race only car its not going to be a problem for me.  Back to the passenger side the top portion of the shock tower is to close to the head to allow the header to be installed there is also that rasied part down low that is behind the rear upper A arm mount that also is hitting although once the header is in place it probably would clear.  I plan to remove the shock tower or at least a major portion on this side to gain the added clearance for the header and better access to the plugs, also if necessary the area behind the A arm mount may need to be trimed.  After checking out the steering I removed the engine and reattached the headers to check for any more clearance issues other than the above mentioned starter issue every thing else looked good.  There is good clearance between the transmission and the collectors so I shouldn't have any issues with the trans blanket fitting or the dip stick.  If the car was still stock with t-bars and stock K member then no these would not fit but in a race only application with a little work they appear to fit pretty well so my daugher is going to get a 650HP 440 instead of the 383 and that will save my mucho$$$ not having to build it.  If I run into any other problems I'll will update this thread, it seems to be going to easy I'm sure something will bite me before I'm done!  I must again complement Bill on his super Alterkation setup and TTI for their super headers I am really impressed with the construction and materials they both use but again I guess you get what you pay for.



[attachment deleted by admin]