440 block pics and drilling

[thecarfarmer]

X3 on the sticky reuest...

If I spell "request" right, will this become a sticky?

r-e-q-u-e-s-t


-bill

[Steve DeTar]

I doubt it.  it was beeen spoken that none of these mod's are not needed per pwmax.  Thats why super stock racers recomendend them from the go.

[pwmax]

Like i said, a big block mopars oiling system, is very good. Consider this. First off, I am a legit, real engine building proffessional, with 18 years expierience, and, I have never done that, except in certain cases, thaqt i will mention in a minute. I have also never lost an engine to a bearing problem. If you set you clearances right, and run a HV pump, and the right pan, with baffling, a windage tray, and enough capacity, you will not have a problem. Even the 1/2 oil pick-up mod is a waste of time. Thats a pretty big hole stock, in the wedge motors. Ever looked a BBC? Ever see how small the oil feed hole is from the rear cap, to the main oil galley? Its about 1/3 the size. Thats the ultimate restriction in a bbc, or a sbc for that matter, and they have very good oiling. If you compare and contratst with the mopar, the oil pump is up front. So, centrifugual force, is helping push the oil towards the rear of the engine. On the chevies, its in the rear, and has to fight this force, pumping the oil forward, making it harder for the front cylinders, to get oil, and they oil just fine.

The reason the stockers, and superstockers do those mods, is because they push the limits of the oiling system. Meaning, they run lower pressure, and standard volume pumps, and, they will run a much smaller amount of oil in the pan, to reduce potential losses from widage. So, they do all those mods, to give themselves "insurance" so they get all the oil possible, thats available, to keep the bearings alive. Thats a BIG difference between a stock and superstock application, to a mild street cruiser, or bracket racer. Thats why those mods are done, and is necessary in those applications. Like I said, if you want to do it, then do it. It won't hurt anything. But, with the right pan, pump, and clearances, its not needed.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[thecarfarmer]

Good point.

But I'm interested in trying to keep a motor alive w/ a stock volume & pressure pump.

I understand that bigger pumps with heavier springs are tried and true - but I'm interested in looking into the 'plan B' as well.

My thought is just like stock or SS racers; how can I get it there w/o spending the power to push oil against a restriction.  I know it's gotta take some amount of power, or people wouldn't harden the ends of oil pump drives.

[375InStroke]

Drilling these gallery's out alone will increase flow 10% to the bearings.

Some of my numbers were wrong.  I only accounted for one side of the bearings.  The following is with the corrected numbers:

1/4" to 9/32" is a 27% increase in area.  How big are the holes in the bearings?  What kind of volume actually comes out of the main and rod bearings?  Also, with a 3.6" main and .003" clearance, I get an area of .068".  With .003" clearance on the rods, I get .044" per rod, or .088" a pair.  Together, I get .156" of area for a main and pair of rods.  With .001" of clearance on the rods and mains, I get .052" of area that the oil is flowing out of the crank per main.  The bearings are half grooved, so oil isn't going to all rods at once, so these numbers should actually be smaller.  Tell me if I'm wrong.  With one main, two rods, and .003" clearance, the area that the oil needs to go through is 62% the size of the main oil feed hole of 1/4".  At .001" clearance, that number drops to 20%.  The rod side clearances restrict the oil loss even more, so I don't think that this mod is necessary.  Perhaps limiting oil to the valve gear would be better.  I don't know.  What do you think?

[Steve DeTar]

I think that the surface area of the 16 lifters bleeds alot off.  I think for every 90 degree turn in a hydraulic system, the flow drops 10%.  The surface area of the rods has been know to grow in highhorsepower engines, which eventially cuts oil off the bottom of the cylinders.  I think full time oiling to the mains is better than half groove bearings, but that is my opinion.  I hate number 4 main, it also feeds the rockers.  I think Indy had the right idea about feeding the oil to the rockers externally via the back of the main oil gallery.  I hate the lifters are pressurized first, then in the oil gallery, must make a 90 degree turn to feed the mains.  I hate the pressure drop especially in the rockers.  The bad deal is, you have to times it by 16. Closed hydraulic systems are much more easier to compute, but when you have a open system that leaks to the atmosphere, things like heat have a greater inpact.  I just wish I could take the hydraulic mule home from Cessna so I could hook it up to one of my engines for further analysis.  It flows 6 gallons a minute at 1500psi to operate all the hydraulics on the CJ 1,2,and 3, still a low pressure, low flow, pressure system.  This is my day job.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[flyboy01]

I am covinced that this mod is warranted for my engine, its such an easy mod, and I have seen three 383/400 motors that had rod/main bearing issues and I want to protect my engine against this. Its just peace of mind to me, I may never need it, but it does help.

Just a few questions for Steve. Can you ream the mains without having to pull the cam bearings? Also, how do you ensure that you get all the metal chips out of the block? I don't have a source of running water in my garage, but I may be able to rig up a pump and maybe a tub of some sort. What about the passages in the crank? Do you recommend full groove bearings?

[NYrr496]

I know this question was not directly to me, but I do NOT like full groove bearings. I like the 3/4 grooves. Reason being is I don't believe the full groove bearing has enough surface across the face of the crank. I had two engines with full groove mains that always had plenty of oil pressure wind up with beaten up cranks. I switched to 3/4 groove bearings where the groove is across the entire top shell and only halfway down the bottom shell with the very bottom being smooth, supporting the entire journal. It was much better after many street miles.

[Steve DeTar]

Just a few questions for Steve. Can you ream the mains without having to pull the cam bearings? Also, how do you ensure that you get all the metal chips out of the block? I don't have a source of running water in my garage, but I may be able to rig up a pump and maybe a tub of some sort. What about the passages in the crank? Do you recommend full groove bearings?

You will have to flush all the passages after doing the reaming, that iron can destroy any bearing, so the cam bearings need to come out.   I usually do this before the "hot tank" and rinse.  The crank should have a nice radius on all the oil feeds, but after the reaming, it is recommended that you install the upper shell of the main bearings and elongate the hole in the bearing if needed.....you will have to check your main bearings installed for this.  Full groove if it's a race motor that is taken passed 7200rpm all the time, and that's just my opinion.  There is nothing wrong with half grooves or the 3/4 groove bearings,   I just like constant flow to the bearings all the way around the journal, it helps cool it.   Just make sure you know what your rod side clearances are.  In the old days with "fuel"  the bearings would crush closing off the side clearance and oil to the bottom of the cylinders.  Today bearings are much better than the old babbit bearings, still, you could increase flow to the bearings by doing some simple reaming.  Good Luck,  Steve D.

[375InStroke]

So Steve, what do you do at Cessna?  I work on 737s myself.  What do you want the mule for?  Do you want to check pressures at different places on a running engine?  I don't think doing it on an engine that isn't rotating would be of much help.

[Steve DeTar]

375stroke, of course it would'nt if the motor is sitting static.  I work on hydraulic systems and have worked at Cessna 11 years now in Flight. I use a "Mule" almost everyday on CJs. Asking me what I would do with one is kind of silly since you work on 737's.   You could use it to measure leakage, and how much of a pressure drop on each main, connect rods sets., lifters,  and everywhere else it is pressurized.  and since I can heat the oil to 170 degree's or higher, it would be something very interesting to do for fun.  I know AndyF was going to make one so he could do some testing on some oil pumps.  Never heard from him since we last talked about it.  He might be too busy on the moparts site.

[andyf]

We made an oil pump dyno for testing oil pumps but I've never done any testing of the oiling system in the block.  I had some long drills modified to do the block drilling.  If the tips are reground they won't catch and break like a regular drill.  The reamer is safer and a tapered reamer would probably be even better.  I've seen some really nasty oil feed holes in blocks so I always go in there and do a clean up.  The last motor I toasted on the dyno was a 383 block that I didn't do the mod on.  When we tore it down we found some casting flash in the #4 feed hole.  Had I just spent the time to run a reamer thru the feed hole I would've saved a nice 383 stroker short block motor so that was a $3000 mistake.

[vitamindart]

someone else , said they go larger than 9/32 is there any benifit of going larger???any draw backs?

[andyf]

Some guys drill or ream the #4 feed hole to 5/16 or maybe even bigger.  #4 is the killer of course since that feeds the top end.  Every motor I've ever blown up has been a spun rod that is fed by the #4 main.  It usually seems like the #6 rod is the first one to go.  I've torn apart several blown motors in wrecking yards and found a spun #6 rod bearing also.

[vitamindart]

so #4 is the only one that should be larger than 9/32

[Steve DeTar]

I think Bob has taken his number 4 main out to 5/16.  9/32 is still bigger than the factory 1/4 feed.  Are your rockers bushed?

[jyrki]

I have done that mod with a drill bit to about a dozen blocks, with no breakage. I start with a short bit, and then change in to long one. But each time, the drilling is a bit "exiting". I'll start doing these mods when the engine will see more than 6500 rpm. Don't know wether it really is needed, but it shouldn't harm anything either. I also drill for 1/2" pick up, and radius the corner like Frank described. Also, for some reason the B blocks have a smaller diameter passage from the corner to teh pump face; I drill that out to RB size too, and fit the pump to the holes. If using a solid cam, I block the oil for the drivers side lifters pushing an aluminum plug to the channel from the rear of the block. That way, if you happen to experience a valvetrain failure on that side, you will not loose oil pressure. I have used inexpensive mopar performance hemi pick ups, and built the oil pans out of the stock ones around them. It's an inexpensive method, and seems to work very well.   

[375InStroke]

Steve, with engine oil being a liquid, wouldn't the pressure of the entire oiling system be the same at all parts of the system at all times?  Clearly there is something going on with the #4 main, but why wouldn't pressure drop in the entire oiling system?  Would this testing you're talking about be done on a running engine, or would an engine without compression rings be rotated by an electric motor at several thousand rpm to do the testing?  Would the oil be blocked off to parts of the engine to isolate one part at a time to see how much oil that part of the engine demands?  I don't see how this could be done since a spinning motor needs oil to all parts.  I like testing things myself so I would know exactly what's going on instead of just guessing, but the cost of equipment is so expensive.  How many people have dynos and flow benches in their garage.  Like you said, it's not like you can take Cessna's equipment home with you.  These are just questions.  You said my previous post pissed you off.  Why.  At the end I said I didn't know and asked what you thought.  I wasn't criticizing you.

[vitamindart]

actually steve my heads are oiled externally i'm running indy heads w/harland sharps

[Steve DeTar]

actually steve my heads are oiled externally i'm running indy heads w/harland sharps

That is much better!   And a much better approach to oil the rockers, saves number 6 and 7 rod bearings since it is getting the oil straight from the main oil galley, which is a huge 9/16 hole.  Most of the guys that bush the rocker use a LONG 5/8 reamer to the main oil galley, then bush the lifters .   If I were doing the external lines to oil the rockers, I'de flip the number 4 cam over  180 degree's so it is not force fed up to the base of the heads and drill a .250 in the cam bearing  using the 1/4 feed in the block ,to close it off and deburr the hole.  Are you using a solid cam or solid roller?  If so, you can drive a expansion plug in the drivers side oil galley and drill a small .090 hole in it just to give some lube to the lifters.  It's no big secret, It's been known about this for along time.  I would prefer to bush all the lifters to help dial in the lifter bores and close off the drivers side oil galley, that knocks out 16 massive leaks down to 8. Oil drain from the heads would lube the lifters.  And you can drill the block between the lifters with a 1/8 inch bit so the oil cam, it  drains right on the cam lobes.  I'll post a pic of that one tomorrow.  What kind of oil pump and do you have a adjustable oil pressure regulator on your pump?  If not, here is a pic of the Moroso one

[375InStroke]

I have two ideas as how to improve the #4 main and top end oiling situation.
1.  Use a fully grooved #4 main bearing and regular half groove on the rest.  Many people don't like using fully grooved bearings on the street due to the reduced bearing support on the crank.  This would reduce that support by only a small percentage compared to using fully grooved bearings on all the mains.
2.  Block off oil to the heads and plumb lines to the rocker shafts like the Indy heads.  Steve likes this one, and why couldn't it be done to any head?  Just install a fitting in the end of the rocker shafts and a fitting through the head and route lines to the back of the block.

[flyboy01]

OK, now you guys have confused the hell out of me.

This question is for Steve DeTar only.

What should I do for a 400-430 hp 383 (never see over 6000 rpm) with stock stroke, cast crank, cast pistons, and an HV oil pump. What bearings should I use, I want to avoid burning up the main and rod bearings. Should I just leave it as is?

[Steve DeTar]

flyboy01, I sent you a PM.
Here's another one of those old mods that probably aren't necessary but I know it helps the return oil coming out of the heads.  I drill a #30 hole inbo of the oil galley on each side and touch it with a countersink.  With a old junk cam installed, you can position the holes right above each lobe. 

[GT_convert.]

Can't beat good ole drip lubrication!!

[Steve DeTar]

You have a constant flow of return, guide it where it can make the most of return.  You can use this on solids or hydraulic's. Since some people don't like the added cost of removing the innner spring when they break in cams,  no matter what, follow the cam manufactors reconmendations.  It might help,  Steve D.

[hillsshaker]

Thanks alot Steve,even I can manage this mod !!!!

[vitamindart]

yeah steve i'm running a solid roller can you post a pic of the plug in the drivers side , the oil pump is a milodon i wasn't useing the adjustable regulator but do have it is it really needed to flip the #4 cam bearing in my aplication since i have indy heads and the don't use those oil passages to the heads they are just sealed with the head gasket

[Steve DeTar]

You don't HAVE to flip the cam bearing, but there is a potential for it to leak there at the head gasket, even though it's blocked off in your head.  Why heat it with the water jacket?  You could tap the rocker feeds in the valley area and use a set screw.   If you drive a expansion plug in the drivers side oil galley......bushed lifter bores or not, the pressure will be up since it is not leaking 8 lifters.  You could purge some of this pressure by drilling a .090 hole in the expansion plug to drop the pressure, most of the flow would still get to the mains and rods.  The .090 hole is enough is just lube the lifters, which is a restriction in the stock sytem, with a solid lifter cam.    Is your lifters bushed?  Ciscodog did this to index his lifters to the cam to get a perfect geometry and to reduce leaks and friction.  I just don't like 100psi at full throttle, makes filters ballon and blow up if it's a cheapy.  I prefer 60 to 75 at WOT and 40 to 50 at idle.  This Milodon, is it a dual pickup or single?  If so, what size is the inside diameter?  And, a really good set of heads that you have, how hard are you going to zing it?  What oil mods have you done?  Sorry vitamindart for this being so long, what main bearings are you going with?  and are you using the spray bars in Indy's valve covers to keep the spring cool?   If you flip the #4 cam bearing, don't forget to drill the 1/4 stock feed hole in it and do a deburr on the bearing.  Let me know, and thank you,,,,, Steve D.

[vitamindart]

its a sinlge line pick up, i have a -12 hose on it (i would use a 1/2 internal but who ever drilled and tapped the block was cross eyedand don't trust it to seal well enough) , haven't got the bearings yet was thinking full groove,wide??,no spray bars just shaft oiling.no the lifters are not  bushed(not shure anyone local can do it right or what it would cost)

the only mods to the block are opening the main feeds to 9/32 and #4 to 5/16 ,will probly drill return drains as you suggested looks like a great way to get oil to the cam. the expansion plug trick makes me nervous (don't know why )

not shure how far i will spin it ,kind of thinking a 493 around 10 to 1 , i have a 600 lift roller 267/269 dur @.050 hoping to make it a little more pump gas freindly and still get in the 10's and maybe a little spray every so often

thanks for all the help Steve its much appreciated

                 Dominic

[Steve DeTar]

375inStroke ...   Steve, with engine oil being a liquid, wouldn't the pressure of the entire oiling system be the same at all parts of the system at all times?  Clearly there is something going on with the #4 main, but why wouldn't pressure drop in the entire oiling system?

Sure the pressure would remain constant if the oil pump is rated above the leak rate, but the flow would'nt.  Picture a tube 2 feet long, we will call it a manifold, in the tube you have 5 holes.  You have a 1/4 hole, a 5/16 hole, a 3/8 hole, a 7/16 hole and a 1/2 hole.  Lets throw a gauge on it and say we have 60 psi of manifold pressure...like a running engine.  Since pressure and flow are related, without a resistance, we would not have any pressure thru out the system.  Kinda like chucking a lifter at 6500rpm...drop in pressure= lots of flow.  The #4 main is the killer since it has to do double duty, since it has to feed the #4 main, feed both connecting rods,  feed the #4 cam bearing and feed both sides of the rocker arms  which are vented via the atomosphere. There is not alot of resistance to keep or hold the liquid in...  It's hydraulics, it's a straight drop by the time it comes out of the rockers.  That is why I liked the idea of feeding the rockers off of the Main oil galley, it don't take away from a certain bearing.   Indy does this with external lines, and not off of #4 main.  There is too much off that one circuit.  Kind of like pulling 50 amps thru a 30 amp circuit breaker if you know what I mean.  I know some builders that tap the oil feeds to the rockers in the face of the deck and insert a set screw and drill a .125 hole in the set screw to limit the amount of flow to the rockers....just to keep most of the oil on the #4 main.  Sure it can help, but I am not completely confident of "how much"  the rockers need for demand are....they are all built different.  Hope this helps and thank you,  Steve D.