440 block pics and drilling

[375InStroke]

I see now.  It's not so much as how much volume and pressure the oil pump produces, but how much volume of oil can enter an area compared to how much is leaving the other end.  If one thinks of the orifice plugs for the front clutch, it all makes sense, just that the orifices are larger.  I was thinking of the oil passages as one big manifold.  It's amazing how much oil can flow through .001" clearance.  So does the top end just need to be kept wet with oil, and the crank bearings need constant pressure?

[jyrki]

I believe, the rocker types, that have aluminum or iron directly against the rocker shaft, would like to have some oil pressure. However, the way the mopar engines get teh oil to the upstairs, this may not be the case after all. The oil upstairs comes through a small passage through the camshaft, when teh holes in the cam bearing and cam lines up. That's once in every two crankshaft revolutions, for about 20 cam degrees or so. Pretty little, for all the valvetrain, I think. full rollerized rockers do not need oilpressure, they can be even used with spraybars inside the valvecovers just squirting oil. In my case, I have direct head oiling through hoses, and I have .040" diameter restrictors in the lines. Still seems to get more than enough of oil upstairs.

[Steve DeTar]

jyrki is right about the timed oiling on the cam shaft.   I just hate the pulses on the # 4 main and the 6 & 7 connecting rods.  Pressure builds up, then drops,  most flow goes to the rockers, not the connecting rods.  Combine this with the firing order of a BB mopar, #4 takes a beating.  Runs hotter and damages bearings to the connecting rods.  Here's some #4 mains

[375InStroke]

I have a story about oil requirements of the rockers.  I have a '64 273 GT Dart with 72,000 miles when I got it.  I adjusted the valves, but after a while, it made noise again.  After repeated adjusting, I noticed that only one valve was getting loose.  It also had most of the ball on the adjuster gone.  When I went to replace the adjuster, I took the shaft off and found that the oil hole to that rocker, #2 exhaust, was missing.  There were only 7 oil holes on that shaft.  Could this engine have been running for, by this time, 80,000 miles or so without oil on this one rocker?  The rocker and shaft looked OK.  I drilled a hole to match the others, sanded the shaft and rocker with 400 grit paper, installed a new adjuster and pushrod, and it runs fine to this day.  I guess oil from the neighboring rocker was enough to lube the rocker, but nothing was getting to the pushrod, so that and the adjuster wore out.

[flyboy01]

Now that is a testament to the durability of a Mopar's valvetrain.

[dangerdawg]

       

[acpat]

steve what about putting restrictors in the cam journal feeds. ?

[thecarfarmer]

Well, I just got back from the machine shop; am having the pickup tapped to 1/2" NPT and the passageway above it brought up to Hemi size.  Re-reading this thread, another question comes to mind:

jyrki is right about the timed oiling on the cam shaft.   I just hate the pulses on the # 4 main and the 6 & 7 connecting rods.  Pressure builds up, then drops,  most flow goes to the rockers, not the connecting rods. Combine this with the firing order of a BB mopar, #4 takes a beating.  Runs hotter and damages bearings to the connecting rods.  Here's some #4 mains

Okay... let me think... 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2...  that'd put them 180 degrees apart, right?  How bad is that? 

I mean, if we're looking at crank harmonics, that 2-1, 4-3 and 6-5 double hits on the same journal have to make it ring and bounce, right?  I can't imagine that the oil flow to the rod bearings sees a change with the firing order (doesn't mean it doesn't... just that I haven't imagined it), but what I can imagine is that oil pressure to #4 main and #6-7 rod bearings dropping off twice per 720 degree cycle. 

How 'bout blocking that corny hole in the camshaft that shuttles oil to the block decks, and grooving the journal instead?  Then you'd probably have to restrict the oiling at the deck going to the heads so that all the oil in the motor didn't end up in the valve covers... You'd get rid of that 'dry season' that happens when the hole thru the cam lines up with the passage that goes up to the heads - a little oil all the time instead of a whole lot once at each head every 2 crank revolutions.

-bill

[vitamindart]

isn't that what b-1 does runs a groved #4 cam journal???

[Steve DeTar]

steve what about putting restrictors in the cam journal feeds. ?

You could, just like they do on small blocks.  But, what heads?  And what about the #4 feed to the rockers?  If you were to use some higher end aftermarket head that fed the rockers with external oil lines, I would do something smaller than the stock .250 size. 

[ksdartguy]

Seems to me the groove on the cam journal stops the pulsing,as  you have full pressure
around the journal and up the passages to the heads continously. I havent had a motor up in the 7000+
range for long periods, but what about the old nascar hemis? My old Hemi RR would turn 7500 easy.
It had no oil mods, just a  deep pan and HV pump.

Rick

[Steve DeTar]

Here's a few shot of the #1 main and how it is fed first before going to the main oil gallery.  Just make sure you go thru the main feed and not the cam journal feed.  This one easy to ream.  I use a 9/16 round bar as a stop.  Thanks

[Steve DeTar]

Here's another shot

[Steve DeTar]

Here's some shots of the oil pump mounting differences between the 440 and 383/400 blocks.  Seems most of the RB's have a 5/8 hole that intersects with the sucker tube whether it has a 3/8 pick up or not and the 383/400's have a 9/16 hole.  Also the main gallery crossover passage remains the same 9/16 bore in all the blocks I have checked here.  That being said, if you got a 383/400 block, take this passage out to 5/8 and drill and tap for a 1/2 sucker tube if you are not going to a external line.

[Steve DeTar]

pic

[dusterdood]

Great tech again Steve!

[PureGTS]

Here in So Cal there is a place called Cal Aero, which is basically a surplus tool shop, where the tooling and or drills can be had for cheap. When I say cheap, I mean 'pricing by the pound', not 'by the engineering degree it takes to design them'. Check your local used or surplus tooling stores, you'll be glad you did and so will your wallet. One down side though, allow yourself a few hours to go through the place as you'll find all sorts of cool stuff to play/look at/with too. It's like a toy store for gear heads and machinists.

[andyf]

I just got a new World block the other day.  It has many of the improvements to the oiling system that are talked about in this thread.  It also has a bolt on pickup adapter that is available in either 3/8 or 1/2 NPT size so you don't have to drill the block.  The valvetrain is fed from the main oil gallery rather than the #4 cam journal.   There are 0.040 restrictors in the feed lines up to the heads to keep from flooding the top of the motor.  And there is a built in provision for external oiling.  All you have to do is screw a #12 AN fitting into the front of the block and you can hook up an external oil input line.

[Steve DeTar]

That is really nice AndyF, if you don't mind, how much does something like this would set me back?  $$

[dusterdood]

You don't want to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fourspeed]

wow.  fantastic info!  this should be a sticky

I disagree. I think this should be a tech article! Steve, please, please, put this into an article and ask Bill to put it on the tech page.

Mark

[andyf]

Steve, you can buy the new World blocks from Mancini Racing for $2570.  That is roughly what a nice thick stock casting will cost after you do all the machine work, plus add a girdle, bush the lifter bores, aluminum main caps, clearancing, etc.

The World block that I posted the picture of above sonic tested at 0.420 minimum on the thrust walls.  So that means you could easily bore it out to 4.500 and still have 0.320 thick on the cylinder.  You'll never find a stock block that is 0.300 thick on all 8 cylinders.

[dusterdood]

That's no so bad after all. I thought they were going to run closer to the Aluminum price.
Mike

[flyboy01]

pic

I'm confused, which hole are we talking about?

[Steve DeTar]

pic

I'm confused, which hole are we talking about?

The sucker tube inlet.  The hole beside where the boss of the oil pump goes into the block.  440's have a 5/8 hole, this hole intersects with the same pickup hole in the crankcase.  383's and 400's have a 9/16 hole here, just like in the pic's.  So the most basic thing you can do to a 383/400 is enlarger this hole to 5/8, just like the 440 blocks.   Just take a ball carbide cutter and radius the corner at the intersection in the block.

[Steve DeTar]

I'll use AndyF's pic for a better view.   Here's the pump boss that goes into the block.  The hole beside it is the "Inlet"  that's the hole that is 9/16 in a 383/400 block.   Look at oil pump boss on the block.

[Steve DeTar]

While you are at it, here's some pic's of why your #4 cam bearings never line up right.  If you get one hole dead perfectly centered, the other feed is half way closed off.  Someone said something about grooving the #4 cam journal.  You will have to be dead nuts spot on to do so.  Here's the mismatch.

[sr71mopar]

Would opening up the oil holes in the bearing prior to installation work?

[Steve DeTar]

I would install the bearing, then back drill thru the feeds, then deburr the bearing.  If you are using a aftermarket cylinder head that requires external oil lines, you won't have any problem.  I suppose if you knew the exact location of the offset, you could, but it's up to whoever is installing the cam bearings to properly align them.  Hope this helps,  Steve

[Steve DeTar]

Here's another pic of the feeds from the main oil gallery.  Notice that once you look into the main saddle that their is another hole besides the one that feeds the cam bearings.  Do not open up the cam feeds.