Torn.......Sleeper or Street Rod???? Opinions Please

[ValiantOne]

Hey All,

I'm posting in Chassis / Suspension because the first thing I want to do is any suspension mod's (mini tubs, spring relocation, brake upgde, etc.) before I go nuts on engine, trans, rear, etc.

Anyhow, now I am really torn! Due the condition of my new ride (excellent!) and some of the board member comments I am now starting to think about keeping the body / chassis pretty stock. It is rare to find a car like this in such good condition and I am wondering if I shouldn't save my street rod ideas for a less perfect specimen and turn this car into a nice sleeper.

If I go the sleeper route I'd like to use steel rims painted the same body color and just stuff the stock wheel wells as much as possible, retain most of the body trim, marker lights etc. I'd keep all the original parts so I could put her back to (almost) total stock if I wanted to. No cutting or serious welding and such.

I'd still put a BB in her, but keep the original SB.

I absoulutely LOVE the wheel tire combo on Tom's Green Dragon (Tom you out there? Help!!! I emailed ya!:))

Any opinions on what you all would do would be GREATLY appreciated

Thanks!

[mopowers]

You can still have a sleeper and cut it up.  If it were me, I would minitub it, do a spring relocation, and subframe connectors.  None of that stuff you can see from the outside of the car, except for the big meats of course.  But you can camoflauge those with custom steel wheels with a lot of backspacing like Tom did. 

[bOb shingler]

SLEEPER keep the hub caps. tub it for wide rears and have the wheels widened.

[qkcuda]

Mine is still wearing its original paint (and dents) and the more I think about it, the less inclined I am to rush into painting it.  I also love the steel wheels and dog dish caps.

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[ValiantOne]

 

I'd love to keep the hub caps if I do a sleeper, but the wheels are dinky little 13 inchers    Don't I have to switch to 15 inchers to do the disk brake swap?

If I have to do the 15" wheels I'd like to get brand new steel ones like Tom's (anyone know a source?)

So, you guys still think I should tub eh? The only reason I hesiatate there is b/c I may want to go back to a compeletly stock s/u for showing the car someday (am I being a total nerd here?). I wonder how much I could stuff into it in the stock config. I've read the wheel / tire comb's post. Maybe that would be a good starting point

Thanks again guys for your comments thus far!!!!

Chris E.

[ValiantOne]

qkcuda,

Absolutely LOVE your wheel tire combo That pic of your copper colored 'cuda is one of the reasons I am thinking sleeper! Are you tubbed at all? What about springs?

You don't know a source for those steelies and dog dishs do you?

Gracias!

[Capt Jack]

definite sleeper.  hacking that survivor beauty up would be a real shame as good a shape as its in.  no offense, but I do think I would change the color though.
then again, Id be super tempted to keep it SB as well.  maybe even a nice 5.9L + OD with say, a nice procharger or some such on it.

just my two cents.

CJ

[Ace]

I'm a little biased, as I LOVE the way Tom's car looks with the stock steels widened out.  So that's the route I'm going, with the dog dish centers.  I'm hiding a nitrous bottle in a fake back in the trunk area, and also having a fake bottle, that way I don't have to hide nitrous solenoids under the hood for maintenance reasons.  If sombody wants a "motor run" I just hand them the dummy bottle.    I'm also keeping the split back bench.  So I say sleeper all the way.  My only catch is I have to get to the spot before they do so they don't hear the cam lope.   

[Jim_Lusk]

I like the sleeper look. I wouldn't tub it, either, but that's going to be your choice. I like the look of my son's Dart, even though it was not nearly as clean as your Valiant when we got it. It is traction limited, but who cares as we aren't racing it.

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[b569rr]

Here I am. I've been real busy with work and havn't checked personal email in a while.

I prefer the sleeper look but that is just me. I did the spring relocate, relocated the wheel wells, moved the rear back an inch, etc... The steel wheels can be purchased through www.wheelvintiques.com. I have bought 3 custom sets and they have alsways been delivered in 3 weeks. Don't go to Stockton. Their customer service is non existent, they take twice as long and their steel wheels are about 25% more money. I want something really different. My plan is a 500 inch cross ram RB. I want to dupe a Stage 3 and have everyone tell me that dodge never made one of those. I'll go check your email.

There was a problem with the route I went. Using such a large backspace puts the disk brake caliper at the small I.D. section of the wheel. I only have 3/16" distance between the outside of the caliper and the wheel. It will work and there is some casting flashing on the calipers that I will take off; about 1/16". My brakes are Ford SVO 11".



Steel wheels are a funny thing with people. I used to run around with these wheels on the RR for a season and did O.K. at car shows with alot of 2nd place trophies. I get stuck in the Modified '68 to '70 B body 'cause I run headers (ceramicoated flat black).



Then I put the steelies on and it has placed several first place at Mopar shows for the last two years and all make shows (musclecar class). Most people around here like the steel wheels and relate them to Mopar Muscle cars. Sticking 295 50's in back probably helped the look too.



Then you get guys like my Olds loving dad who say they look like $h1t. 

Bottom line is its your car and have fun doing it your way. If you want to see your car with a strip look check out B1Valiant. He doesn't have any pics in the gallery, look up his name in the members area. I like his wheels also.

Tom



Thanks for all the compliments guys.

[NYrr496]

I'm a little biased, as I LOVE the way Tom's car looks with the stock steels widened out.  So that's the route I'm going, with the dog dish centers.  I'm hiding a nitrous bottle in a fake back in the trunk area, and also having a fake bottle, that way I don't have to hide nitrous solenoids under the hood for maintenance reasons.  If sombody wants a "motor run" I just hand them the dummy bottle.    I'm also keeping the split back bench.  So I say sleeper all the way.  My only catch is I have to get to the spot before they do so they don't hear the cam lope.   

My friend James and I took the same idea a step further. We had his Volare plumbed for nitrous with the bottle in the trunk. We had a motorcycle bottle T'd in under the dash. When someone wanted a motor run, we'd disconnect the line from the trunk mounted bottle, turn on the little bottle and let er rip.

[Ace]

I'm a little biased, as I LOVE the way Tom's car looks with the stock steels widened out.  So that's the route I'm going, with the dog dish centers.  I'm hiding a nitrous bottle in a fake back in the trunk area, and also having a fake bottle, that way I don't have to hide nitrous solenoids under the hood for maintenance reasons.  If sombody wants a "motor run" I just hand them the dummy bottle.    I'm also keeping the split back bench.  So I say sleeper all the way.  My only catch is I have to get to the spot before they do so they don't hear the cam lope.   

My friend James and I took the same idea a step further. We had his Volare plumbed for nitrous with the bottle in the trunk. We had a motorcycle bottle T'd in under the dash. When someone wanted a motor run, we'd disconnect the line from the trunk mounted bottle, turn on the little bottle and let er rip.

Oh I'm having a false back in the trunk to the seat back where the live bottle will be along with a remote opener.  I will have a dummy bottle and dummy line visible in the trunk.  I'll have a full 10lb bottle hidden. 

[urchinhead]

I really like the Tom Green Dragon route myself, where the car looks stock enough, but you've got everything you really need for a nice looking car with some muscle under the hood. I like when cars look more stock/sleeper; having a huge blower sticking out of the hood and everything is fine for car shows and at the strip, but it looks really rediculous on the street, plus you get al kinds of idiots trying to race you.

That Valiant looks like you can buff out the paint, do a little suspension work + brakes, then swap motors, and you're ready to go!

[qkcuda]

My car has SS springs in the stock location, and the wheel wells are stock.  I lucked into a set of 15x8 Ramcharger wheels for the back.  The fronts in the pic are stock 14x5 1/2 small bolt pattern.  I am in the process of swapping to disc brakes, and I have already painted up a set of 15x6 1/2 large bolt pattern for the front.  I am just waiting for my new front tires to come in, but they will be the same height as the old ones.  You could always use the MP offset spring hangers, which move the springs in about 3/4 inch per side.  They allow you to use the entire stock wheelwell, since it moves the edge of the springs even with the edge of the inner wheelwell.  With proper offset you could probably squeeze in a 15x8 steelie.  You also shouldn't end up with enough offset to interfere with the brakes.  By the way, I love that yellow.

[thebankerstoy]

On my son's 72 Dart Swinger, we took another route. While the car looks pretty stock from the outside, there have been MANY changes throughout the car, but almost ALL of the changes are factory looking upgrades, rather than lots of true aftermarket parts. The body is completely factory stock, but instead of wearing it's factory medium metallic green paint, it's wearing a factory correct Top Banana Yellow. The suspension and brakes are still basicly stock, except the front suspension now has all poly bushings, big block torsion bars, KYB gas shocks and an upgraded front sway bar. The rear suspension still has the factory installed 7.25 rear end, but it now sits on Super Stock leaf springs with poly bushings, that are still located in their factory location. A heavy duty rear sway bar has also been added. The transmission is still the factory installed heavy duty 904, but it has been completely rebuilt and now has a mild shift kit and a 30" long "bullit" style transmission cooler mounted up front behind the front bumper and valance panel. The wheels are 14 x 6 Magnum 500's, along with P225-70R-14 Radial T/A tires, that look very stock for this year of car. The engine is still a 318, which is what the car was equipped with from the factory, but it now sports a factory set of 340 HP exhaust manifolds and a factory stock, cast 340 intake manifold, along with a well tuned Holley 600 carb and a custom 2.5" dual exhaust system. Don't get me wrong, there is ALOT in favor of building a big block    A-Body, but they run REALLY well with a well built small block also, AND you can pass a gas station once in awhile with the small block powered car! 

So to make a long story short, you can do ALOT of upgrading to the car WITHOUT doing ANY cutting, or major modifications to the car, but still make it a VERY stock looking, fun car to drive.
Just one guy's opinion who's "been there, done that". 

Richard

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[moparrr07]

if you go sleeper and decide to keep the current paint- i guarantee you will have everyone asking you when you are going to paint it, its really annoying and when you tell them your answer they just kinda look at you for a while- you can have a street rod and it will still be a sleeper- no body will expect a valiant like that to lay down 10s- the only people that will really know is true.... true mopar fans- ever other chevy guy out there(78% of population around here) wont know the difference between a 318 and a 440- give it a nice paintjob a baddass 440 (stroker) and paint the engine all orange, through on some steel wheels and you will still have a hotrod, a sleeper, a 10 second valiant, you can enjoy as being a very nice muscle car but no one else think of it being anything else but a moparts car.

[GON_RACIN]

Oh I'm having a false back in the trunk to the seat back where the live bottle will be along with a remote opener.  I will have a dummy bottle and dummy line visible in the trunk.  I'll have a full 10lb bottle hidden. 

watcha gonna do when you run across someone smart enough to ask you to disconnect the nitrous feed line at the plate or nozzles?   

[ValiantOne]

Thanks to each and every one of you! Of course I'll have to let everything gel in my head for a while, but here is what I'm thinkin' at this point...........

I really like the idea of the sleeper / stock look, which would be reversable if I ever decide to do a totally restored stock car (or sell it to someone who wants to go stock). I love the Green Dragon ala Tom / Copper 'Cuda ala qkcuda.

Wheel Vintiques doesn't make that steel rim in a 5X4 bolt pattern, only in a 5X4.5. That is ok for the fronts b/c I'm going with the 73 up disk brakes. So that leaves the rear in question. I'd also like to do the SS springs and the offset spring shackles that qkcuda mentioned.

As for paint.........it reeeeaaaaaly needs paint. You can't tell from the photos, but it is a little rough in areas. I am thinking Bananna Yellow like Richard's 72.

For motive power, it would be simpler to go with a nice SB, but I have ALWAYS wanted a BB A body Plus I have the donor car with 400/727 just sittin' here. Still, I want to get the body, suspension, wheels and tires stright first. We have a lot of 'necks out here that slap a %^#@ 350 in a rotted out Camaro and think they have a "cool" car. Ugh. I want her to look right first.

So! Here is the second set of questions......

1. What do I do for a rear end? Get a 73 up rear? Swap axles in the existing rear? Is that even possible? I am not even sure what rear is in it. I just know it ain't a 8 3/4.

2. Do the pre 73 and post 73 rear ends bolt up the same?

3. Are SS springs a Mopar Perf. product? If not, where do I get 'em.

4. Are the offset shackles a Mopar prod? If not, where do I get 'em.

Thanks again guys. You all don't know how much I appreciate the benefit of your experience.

Chris E.

[b569rr]

1. A body 8.75" rear. Then you can get the 5 x 4.5 wheels. Complete new 11" drum kits are available or 11" disks.

3. Yes. Mancini has them

[thebankerstoy]

Hey Chris,


Some answers to your questions.

#1  It most likely has a 7.25 rear end with the 5 on 4" small bolt pattern, or it might have a 8.25 with the small bolt pattern. I have found out that on the 72 and earlier 7.25 rear ends, you can not swap the small bolt pattern axles over to the big bolt pattern axles. Everybody will tell you to buy a large bolt pattern 8.75, but unless you luck out on a deal somewhere, they are getting pretty expensive, but on the other hand, you can still find complete drum to drum 73 -76           A-Body 8.25 rear ends around for a good price and if this car is going to spend most of it's time on the street, the 8.25 will work just fine unless your building a high horsepower big block. It will bolt in with few modifications, but you will need a matching driveshaft to go along with the 8.25, or I guess that you could have your exsisting driveshaft modified. You will want to make sure that you get all of the large bolt pattern brake parts also. I'm not totally sure about the difference between the emergence brake cables on the 7.25 and the 8.25, but I'm sure someone will chime in on that fot you.

#2 see #1

#3  Yes, they are sold by any Mopar Performance dealer near you, or on-line.

#4 see #3

Richard

[Ace]

Oh I'm having a false back in the trunk to the seat back where the live bottle will be along with a remote opener.  I will have a dummy bottle and dummy line visible in the trunk.  I'll have a full 10lb bottle hidden. 

watcha gonna do when you run across someone smart enough to ask you to disconnect the nitrous feed line at the plate or nozzles?   

Not pop the hood. 

[jamesdart]

that car is really nice. i wouldnt touch the body. but then again look at my car. i have to argue the fact that people will always be asking when you will paint it, with my car i had all kinds of people telling me if i paint it, its just not going to be the same. and telling me i cant paint it. you dont have to mini tub the car to go fast. if you set it up right, you can go 11's with a small tire and no minitub.  id stick with a 28x9.  black steel wheels on that car would look sick. you should be able to run the offset hanger and 28x11.50 et streets, i have theat setup on my 67 with some mods, but the valiant should have more room with the larger rear wheel openings.

[4spdfury]

why doesnt anybody try a differnt spring. all you guys are stuck on ss springs. there are more up to date springs for the rear.

[ValiantOne]

why doesnt anybody try a differnt spring. all you guys are stuck on ss springs. there are more up to date springs for the rear.

I'm all ears! What do you recommend?

C

[chryco]

Here`s a cool B1 / 500cube car from here , checkout the grille.
    Chryco

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[jamesdart]

yeah im also not a fan of the s/s springs, they make the rear of the car sit way too high for me, and crooked too,  but they do work. you can keep your stock springs and go with a lift bar or caltracs that will work.

[qkcuda]

Just a thought.  Using the offset spring hangers on an A body 8 3/4 means that you have to cut off the spring perches and reweld them 3/4 inch inboard.  Then you have to go out and buy custom axles and brakes to convert to large bolt pattern.  If you get an early B body 8 3/4, it will have large bolt pattern already, so you just relocate the perches the required distance and you're done.  It will probably be cheaper too.  The rear is about 1 inch wider per side, but you can make that up with your offset on the custom rear steelies.  By the way, my paint loks a heck of a lot better in that pic than in person also.

[Dart67]

Here are a couple of photos of my convertible.

I am usinng SS Springs moved inboard and the wheel wells are also moved in.

The wheels are from The Wheel Guy.

The front are 14 X 6 and the rears are 15 X 10 with a 5" backspace with Mickey Thompson 3.35 X 50 X15 ET Street Radials.

Herb 





DO IT YOUR WAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!