New front end for the dart!

[thewhitezombie]

Ok guys its time for the big block,but my Qis whats the best new front end kit to get besides the alterkation,like new bushings an new links,the car is 72 dart set up as a street  for the weekends built 440,tight tranny an 488's so the stock 318 front end isnt gonna cut it.what do u guys like?should i get new T-bars as well is so what weight should i get?Thanks for any help guys
Mikey

[69 GTS Clonvertible]

The first item you should do is rebuild or have your front end rebuilt, new bushings, rubber, etc., new ball joints if yours are worn, if you want your steeering to be tighter a new fast ratio steering box would be good to get. a nice front sway bar 1 1/8" and even new torsion bars, the large diameter for an A-body with a big block in it, unless it is strictly for race then the smaller lighter slant 6 T-bars are best. with all that I mentioned above it should make your Dart handle much better and if you get everything I mentioned it will probably cost around $1000.00 to $1500,00 if you figure a new fast ratio steering box to be about $400.00, $200.00 for the new bushing and rubber kit, $200.00 for the new T-bars, $200.00 for new ball joints, about $160.00 for the sway bar, and $100.00 for the alignment, oh and if you have someone do the work for you well that will be an additional $300.00 unless you find an old mechanic that will take less cash and more beer to do the job, but I would insist on being around to make sure that the job got done right.

[moparrr07]

unless it is strictly for race then the smaller lighter slant 6 T-bars are best.

 i strongly disagree, the 6 cylinder bars make your car handling like its driving through mashed potatos,

an upgraded torsion bar make you front end so much stiffer, this (besides tires) is probly the best mod you can do to improve handling, that and shocks- for a big block, id recommend at least a .990 bar, and maybe one step down if its a smallblock

[69 GTS Clonvertible]

unless it is strictly for race then the smaller lighter slant 6 T-bars are best.

 i strongly disagree, the 6 cylinder bars make your car handling like its driving through mashed potatos,

an upgraded torsion bar make you front end so much stiffer, this (besides tires) is probly the best mod you can do to improve handling, that and shocks- for a big block, id recommend at least a .990 bar, and maybe one step down if its a smallblock

You're right if you used the slant six t-bars for street use!
Most of the race only people use the slant six t-bars because they are lighter, for RACING a 1/4 mile at a time in a straight line. Reread my reply, I stated if the Dart was RACE ONLY use the slant six t-bars, it's for weight reduction.
WTF doesn't anybody read now days!
Oh and I applaud you for buying your own car and paying for the gas and insurance,   but pay more attention in class. One more tidbit for you, I purchased my first car when I was 13 with my own money, that I worked for after school and weekends, earning $1.76 an hour, so I could purchase a 1963 Plymouth Valiant Signet 200, 2-door hardtop, slant six, bucket seats, pushbutton trans, and no seatbelts, for $278.00, back in 1982. Me and my friends used to go down to O.C.I.R. when it was open, back in the day.

[Midnight Special]

 

hONEY...BRING ME A BEER WILL YA

[69 GTS Clonvertible]

 

[b569rr]

 i strongly disagree, the 6 cylinder bars make your car handling like its driving through mashed potatos,

/6 bars for the strip; weight transfer.

The tech pages are very helpful. The listed Moog parts are available at Summit. Use O.E. rubber LCA bushings. My other bushings are poly from PST. Some people have had early wear out trouble with these. I only have about 5 K miles on mine no problems yet. Dan at Mancini recommended .890 T bars for an RB street car that will see some strip time so that's what I bought.

Tom

[flyboy01]

Most of the race only people use the slant six t-bars because they are lighter, for RACING a 1/4 mile at a time in a straight line. Reread my reply, I stated if the Dart was RACE ONLY use the slant six t-bars, it's for weight reduction.

Actually, they use them so they rise faster on launch, then with 90/10 drag shocks, they will settle slowly. Lighter weight is a small side benfit

[moparrr07]

unless it is strictly for race then the smaller lighter slant 6 T-bars are best. with all that I mentioned above it should make your Dart HANDLE much better

Most of the race only people use the slant six t-bars because they are lighter, for RACING a 1/4 mile at a time in a straight line. Wink Reread my reply, I stated if the Dart was RACE ONLY use the slant six t-bars, it's for weight reduction.

it says right there, it should make you dart handle much better-

im not stupid, i know a ton about weight transfer,
and your the idiot, blowing up at me, only to prove your point that /6 are for weight reduction, dude, come on before yelling at someone, at least get your facts right

i run .990 bars on the street, i really couldnt stand even /6 bars on the street, i have the old /6 bars in my parts pile ready for when i go to the strip

drag only- /6 bars or smaller
street- .920-.990
road race- 1.04+

 i strongly disagree, the 6 cylinder bars make your car handling like its driving through mashed potatos,

/6 bars for the strip; weight transfer.

Tom

when i talk about handling, i mean taking corners, i know damn well that /6 bars give better weight transfer (they maybe take off a pound in the front end )- before you start yelling at me, atleast understand why people make that mod

hONEY...BRING ME A BEER WILL YA

your either going to need a case

quote from 69 GTS Clonvertible:"me and my friends" let that blank have it. Wink-

haha, u really think you won this argument? haha

u just lost by letting everyone know that you been using /6 bars for weight-

this is going to be funny watching him come back from this one

[flyboy01]

You two need to hug... 

[69 GTS Clonvertible]

unless it is strictly for race then the smaller lighter slant 6 T-bars are best. with all that I mentioned above it should make your Dart HANDLE much better
Most of the race only people use the slant six t-bars because they are lighter, for RACING a 1/4 mile at a time in a straight line. Wink Reread my reply, I stated if the Dart was RACE ONLY use the slant six t-bars, it's for weight reduction.

it says right there, it should make you dart handle much better-
im not stupid, i know a ton about weight transfer,
and your the idiot, blowing up at me, only to prove your point that /6 are for weight reduction, dude, come on before yelling at someone, at least get your facts right
i run .990 bars on the street, i really couldnt stand even /6 bars on the street, i have the old /6 bars in my parts pile ready for when i go to the strip
drag only- /6 bars or smaller
street- .920-.990
road race- 1.04+

i strongly disagree, the 6 cylinder bars make your car handling like its driving through mashed potatos,

/6 bars for the strip; weight transfer.
Tom

when i talk about handling, i mean taking corners, i know damn well that /6 bars give better weight transfer (they maybe take off a pound in the front end )- before you start yelling at me, atleast understand why people make that mod

hONEY...BRING ME A BEER WILL YA

your either going to need a case
quote from 69 GTS Clonvertible:"me and my friends" let that blank have it. Wink-
haha, u really think you won this argument? haha
u just lost by letting everyone know that you been using /6 bars for weight-
this is going to be funny watching him come back from this one

Your just a smart arss little kid who thinks he knows something about everything, but you really don't know nothing about anything, except how to be a dumbass.
What I wrote was this:
The first item you should do is rebuild or have your front end rebuilt, new bushings, rubber, etc., new ball joints if yours are worn, if you want your steeering to be tighter a new fast ratio steering box would be good to get. a nice front sway bar 1 1/8"and even new torsion bars, the large diameter for an A-body with a big block in it, unless it is strictly for race then the smaller lighter slant 6 T-bars are best. with all that I mentioned above it should make your Dart handle much better and if you get everything I mentioned it will probably cost around $1000.00 to $1500,00 if you figure a new fast ratio steering box to be about $400.00, $200.00 for the new bushing and rubber kit, $200.00 for the new T-bars, $200.00 for new ball joints, about $160.00 for the sway bar, and $100.00 for the alignment, oh and if you have someone do the work for you well that will be an additional $300.00 unless you find an old mechanic that will take less cash and more beer to do the job, but I would insist on being around to make sure that the job got done right.

This part of the sentence would be the exclusion from the rest of the paragraph,
unless it is strictly for race then the smaller lighter slant 6 T-bars are best.
Like I said pay attention in class especially in english.

your either going to need a case
quote from 69 GTS Clonvertible:"me and my friends" let that blank have it. Wink-
haha, u really think you won this argument? haha
u just lost by letting everyone know that you been using /6 bars for weight-
this is going to be funny watching him come back from this one

No I never said I won any argument you little puke and you have a hell of alot to learn.
And I never said I used slant six bars at all, what I wrote was this, after you disagreed you snot nosed little prick:

i strongly disagree, the 6 cylinder bars make your car handling like its driving through mashed potatos,

You're right if you used the slant six t-bars for street use!
Most of the race only people use the slant six t-bars because they are lighter, for RACING a 1/4 mile at a time in a straight line.  Reread my reply, I stated if the Dart was RACE ONLY use the slant six t-bars, it's for weight reduction.
WTF doesn't anybody read now days!  
Maybe you should do some research or reading, and get your facts straight, before you decide to post a disagreement. Weight reduction on the front end equals weight transfer to the rear like here--->  
I'm old-skool with a degree and your the fool here, and that's all I got to say to you, except Sorry  to THEWHITEZOMBIE for this thread getting pushed over into the Darkside.

[69 GTS Clonvertible]

Most of the race only people use the slant six t-bars because they are lighter, for RACING a 1/4 mile at a time in a straight line. Reread my reply, I stated if the Dart was RACE ONLY use the slant six t-bars, it's for weight reduction.

Actually, they use them so they rise faster on launch, then with 90/10 drag shocks, they will settle slowly. Lighter weight is a small side benfit

And how is it that the front end rises faster on launch? maybe because they are lighter?
I've alway's been told that the lighter the front end the faster it will rise in conjunction with horsepower transfered into footpounds of torque to the rear.

[west]

the torsion bar acts like a spring,it is actually trying to bend under load.a thinner bar will bend more giving more of a spring effect,and a thicker bar will act like a stiffer spring.
yes the bars are lighter,but that is secondary to it's rebound characteristics.or maybe not,it's just a guess

[440dstr]

IMO /6 bars work better for drag racing ,because they have more stored energy . a thinner bar has to twist more . 

[440dstr]

and i also think sometimes its better just to listen!!!

[flyboy01]

the torsion bar acts like a spring,it is actually trying to bend under load.a thinner bar will bend more giving more of a spring effect,and a thicker bar will act like a stiffer spring.
 yes the bars are lighter,but that is secondary to it's rebound characteristics.or maybe not,it's just a guess
 

Yup, what he said, drag cars use lighter spring rates, which on the street would cause the suspension to top and bottom out, in a drag car, you want it to top out and settle back down slowly, this changes the angle of the cars attitude, whuich allows transfer of weight to the rear tires, especially upon acceleration, which not only pulls the front end up, but pushes the weight back. Drag shocks, like 90/10's, keep the front end up, helping weight transfer. a 90/10 shock has 10% resistance keeping the front from rising, and 90% of resistance keeping the front from falling back down. Neither would work for drag racing without the other. On the street, it would be almost dangerous. when people refer to "lighter" torsion bars they are not talking about the weight (although since the metal is thinner, it may be a couple pounds lighter, but not enough to make a difference), they are talking about lighter spring rate, which is resitance to movement. A 300lb per inch spring take 300lbs to compress it 1 inch if it is linear, a progressive spring may take 300lbs to compress the first inch, then each additional inch will take additional weight to compress by a percentage (300ls/1", 660/2", 990lbs/3"). If you used lighter rate /6 bars without 90/10 schocks, then upon launch, the front end would quickly rise, top out, then fall back down, rise again, and so on. This would continually unload the rear tires, causing loss of traction. I had this problem in a Dakota I used to race, eventually better front shocks and a Caltrac rear setup cured the problems I had.

[moparrr07]

your right, a lighter front end suspention will cause the front to raise faster, but that is only the unsprung weight, springs are neither sprung or unsprung-

yes they are lighter but that has nothing to do with how fast the front end rises, that is only caused by spring rate- an a body torsion bar and a b body torsion bar of the same spring rate will be the same, even though the a body one is lighter just because its shorter- the only reason the front end comes up quicker is because the bars are softer, not because of how much they weight, if you drill out the center of a torsion bar and fill it with Mallory metal, the front end will come up just as quick, even though the bar would then be heavier-

once again, you said all the above will make your car handle better, and you said /6 bars for a race application, meaning /6 bars will make you car handle better in racing applications, which is not true-

your only support is that you think ever kid in high school knows nothing- read some of my posts, you will see that 90% of them are very helpful to people- yes i am still learning but i know a hellofalot more about this subject than most people did at my age-

how many people do you know that will make up a 16 circuit wiring harness from scratch with relocated switches and custom interiors and such- where as most people will just go out and buy a harness- let alone doing it at my age-

maybe you should look at what i write in my posts before you start being stereotypical about high schoolers

[CudaDon65]

You two need to hug... 

    

[Bill_Reilly]

Slant 6 bars allow more weight transfer because they are a lighter spring rate, not because they weigh less. The lighter rate bars have to twist more to hold the weight, so they're "wound up tighter" than a heavier bar. This is what's meant by "stored energy". They allow you to run a lower height and maintain a higher amount of energy right up to fully extended. The heavier bar in the same situation runs out of steam near the end of travel because it's almost fully untwisted. The difference is that the wheel with a /6 bar will maintain it's rising speed right to the end of travel, whereas a wheel with a heavier bar will begin to slow down as it reaches the top of it's travel. This difference could be measured in thousandths of a second, but every little helps when you're trying to make leaf springs work.

Torsion bars by the way are progressive springs, which rides better than linear, and they're also 100% sprung weight. A conventional spring attached to the control arm is 50% sprung weight, as is half the weight of the shock, control arms, and tie rods. With the shock though, if the lighter side is attached to the control arm, there is less weight that has to move with the wheel, which is why even though the sprung weight is 50%, the wheel will move faster if the shock is upside down - the shaft end is lighter than the body, so there's less inertia to overcome before the wheel starts to move.
On mis-shapen parts like upper arms, it's more accurate to weigh each end like you would balance connecting rods, since the wide side is heavier, the 50% figure on those parts would only be a close guess. Then again, unless you're jeff gordon or john force, calculating to that level is pointless, as the improvement from doing it and getting custom springs, would be so small you'd hardly be able to even measure it without a clock to the .0001 of a second.

....I love this subject

[moparrr07]

i always just thought everything below the springs were unsprung and everything above was sprung, but now that i remember, your right, i do remember reading in a book about the 50% thing on a coil and other parts

but if a torsion is 100% sprung, then the actual weight of the torsion bar has nothing to do with weight transfer - i win

[Bill_Reilly]

Got it backwards - the sprung mass is the car body - lighter sprung mass rises faster. Although concerning t-bars, the weight difference would be so small it doesn't matter from that stand point.

[moparrr07]

i got it right, the sprung weight is everything that bounces, im still learning, but i got it mostly right

[Bill_Reilly]

Yep. And the t-bars are mounted on the car, so they also contribute to the sprung mass.  It's interesting to think about really. Technically, from a pure weight stand point, in a drag car, a coil-over would be better because it would remove half of the spring weight from the sprung mass, allowing faster rise in the front, while in a handling car, it would be theoretically better to run the t-bar because it lowers the unsprung weight, allowing the wheels to move faster.  Of course in reality, the difference is really tiny, but it's fun to think about how moving weight around would impact the overall behavior.

[moparrr07]

yea, really either way it will be so little of a difference in either type of racing, but when you have a prostocker or something that has carbon fiber brake rotors, every gram counts

[Cudadust]

Now back to the question, The best price on some suspension parts like torsion is the dealers Try parts@monicattichrysler.com Energy Suspension is the manufacturer of the Urethane ( polly by golly ) parts.  A good MOOG improved suspension rebuild is probably the best compromise. www.rockauto.com is an excellent source to find the part numbers from several vendors for the older cars and the prices are reasonable. The .990 torsion bnars arer probably the best for a street\strip combination.  I use KYB shocks for my A=bodies and they work well for the price, Summit appears to have the best prices on the KYBs. Mopar also sells a bolt\weld in frame connector for about $100 which is a worth while addition to the suspension build.  Good luck on the project.