Five Point Harness with No Cage or Bar?

[67Satty]

Is there a way to do this?  I've got nothing but a lap belt with a big ol' steering wheel and metal dashboard staring me in the face.  I don't even know if they had collapsible steering columns back in '67. 

This thing will do maybe high 12s to start with when I'm done.  I'm not opposed to putting a 6 point in it someday.  Any ideas for me?   

P.S. Just got done watching some joker on Pinks All Out running mid 10s with no cage and just a lap belt in a '68 Camero.

[thebankerstoy]

I agree with your line of thinking about upgrading your factory seat belts. On my 66 Coronet, I was faced with a low back factory bucket seat that doesn't even have a locking seat back! So when I started racing the car seriously back in 1990, I bought an RCI NHRA approved lightweight hi-back racing bucket seat and used a combination of the RCI and stock seat mounts so that I would continue to have an adjustable seat. Then I bought a Simpson 5 point harness with the "Y" style shoulder belts. I mounted the lap belt portion of the new harness in the factory lap belt locations and then I drilled two holes in the floor pan, one for the shoulder belt behind the front seat and one up front under the seat for the crotch strap. To make it MUCH safer, I cut out two steel plates for these two new seat belt mounting bolts, so the mounting bolts would pass through both the floor pan and the new steel plates, as I didn't want to have a problem with the bolts pulling through the floor pan. I also used lock washers and lock nuts to make sure that nothing would come loose. All of the belts are routed through slots in the RCI seat, so I had no problems with keeping them in place.

If your going to use a stock bucket seat, your going to have problems with the shoulder belts, as unlike the RCI hi-back seat that have a way to keep all of the belts in place, your stock seat does not, so you might want to go with a set up like I used in my sons 72 Dart Swinger, which is a modern 3 point retractable unit made by a company called Wesco. If you want more information on these belts, check out Paddock, Year One or other major Mopar retailers. There have also been several threads here on where these belts have been throughly discussed. The only problem that you might have with the Wesco belts, is not having a factory shoulder belt welded nut in place in order to mount the upper shoulder belt. I may have that same problem on my 66 Coronet soon, as I am restoring the interior back to a stock look, so all of the RCI and Simpson stuff will be coming out unless I can figure out how to make the Simpson belts work with the stock seat.    Back in the 60's, seat belts were an option, not a requirement like the newer cars have, so LOTS of these older cars only came with lap belts if that. 

Richard

[Prodart]

I'm pretty sure 'Y' shoulder belts won't pass tech anymore

[thebankerstoy]

I'm pretty sure 'Y' shoulder belts won't pass tech anymore

Well Prodart, you may be correct, as I've been out of racing since 1998, but instead of making a comment like that, why don't you help us all out and give us the current rules for a 12 second car with no roll cage or roll bar? How else would you mount a Simpson harness without a cage or roll bar on these early cars?  I would also say that my race set-up is superior to the factory set-up in my Coronet, which consists of  low back bucket seats with no locking seat backs or shoulder belts.

Richard

[67Satty]

Hey bankerstoy, appreciate the feedback.  One thing I need clarification on is why it matters if the seat backs lock or not?  I get that there is nothing to stop them from moving forward in an accident, but in what way does it matter if the shoulder harness/seat belts are bolted to something solid like the floor or a roll bar and you are strapped into the belts harness?  Just trying to understand.   

[thebankerstoy]

Hey bankerstoy, appreciate the feedback.  One thing I need clarification on is why it matters if the seat backs lock or not?  I get that there is nothing to stop them from moving forward in an accident, but in what way does it matter if the shoulder harness/seat belts are bolted to something solid like the floor or a roll bar and you are strapped into the belts harness?  Just trying to understand.   

On a low back bucket seat such as in my 66 Coronet and most likely in your 67, the problem is that without a way to ancore the the Simpson style harness to the seat like it's done with my hi-back RCI seat, even though your snugly belted in the seat, if your car were to have a major accident where it starts flipping or rolling, your shoulders could very well slip out of the shoulder belts because they aren't attached to the seat in any way, which would then allow your upper body to be at the mercy of whatever parts of your interior that could come in contact with your head and body. In addition, with the non locking seat backs, if you do slip out of the shoulder belts, you WILL come in contact with the steering wheel / steering column, which as you can guess, would cause some serious damage to your head and body. With the upper and lower slots in the RCI style seat, it would take the entire seat coming completely out of the floor pan for you to slip out of your safety harness. If Prodart is correct in that NHRA won't let you use the "Y" style shoulder belts, I'm not sure how your going to get around this problem if you want to use a Simpson style 5 point harness, because without a roll bar or cage, what would you attach your shoulder belts to? 

Richard 

[67Satty]

That all makes sense, I guess I was hoping/wondering if there is some 5 point harness that can mount the shoulder straps to the floor in back.  Sometimes I think it may have been easier/better to try to build this thing as an 11 second car.  Safer and more solid that way with 6 point cage and 5 point harness, just seems like a little overkill for a high 12 second, street/strip car to go with the cage and harness.  Maybe, I'll end up putting in some new shoulder/lap belts like 3 point Wesco ones.  Might be a good compromise between my 40 year lap belts and a 5 point harness. 

What I still don't get even after looking at their websites and instructions is if there is a place on the roof to mount the shoulder belts on an older car like mine that probably never had shoulder belts even as an option.  Or did they?

[67Satty]

I've been looking over the NHRA rules online and all I can find is this:

"A quick-release, 3-inch shoulder harness meeting SFI Spec 16.1, including crotch strap, is mandatory in all
cars in competition required by the rules to have a roll bar or a roll cage."

So this would be for the 11.99 and quicker cars with roll bars and roll cages.

And this for everyone slower than 11.99:

"All cars must be equipped with an accepted quick release type driver seat belt."

Kinda leaves a lot of room for interpretation for cars slower than 11.99.  Pretty much seems like a lap belt will still pass tech for cars slower than 11.99.  Anyone have any recent experience with this?  I saw on Wesco's website they also have a dual shoulder strap setup that uses 2 inch Y belts for the shoulder and bolts everything to the floor.   

[7173Duster]

I was told by a tech inspector, Midnight Special, from this site that Y style belts went out of certification this year and will not pass tech.

[67Satty]

Not pass tech for 11.99 and quicker or not pass tech for anything?

[7173Duster]

I didn't think to ask him and my new rule book is at home.  I run 10.90 to 11.10 depending on weather so I didn't even ask about a cut off.  My understanding was that they wouldn't pass.  Not that I would ever take this as the final word, but Summit Racing has Y type harnesses listed as not SFI approved.  I would send a private message to Midnight Special for a definitive answer.  He has always been very helpful when I had questions.

[68_GSS]

Seat belt is mandatory in all cars.  Three inch driver restraint system meeting SFI spec 16.1 mandatory for 11.49 or quicker.   SFI 16.1 shoulder harness must be mounted level with shoulders to 4 inches below shoulders. Sounds to me like the SFI 16.1 shoulder harness needs to mount to a roll bar or cage.   Y-type harness is out as of 2006.

[Prodart]

Sorry for the short outburst. (On my way to work)
11.99 and slower can use the stock seatbelts.
11.49 and quicker mandates the cage in full body, 13.99 for verts.
The cage requirement is pretty much the cutoff point. When it becomes mandated it brings along all the other specs.
Mounting is mandated to the crossbar of the cage. Switching to a 5 point belt then requires it to be mounted to crossbar.
And sadly removeable cross bars usually won't pass tech if the look.
The minimum thickness for the mount tab is 1/4" hope that helps.

The easiest way is to run stock belts or be prepared to make the entire install pass.

Hope this helps

[68_GSS]

Note that the roll bar requirements have changed:

Roll bar required in cars 11.00 to 11.49, convertible top cars 11.00 to 13.49

Roll cage 10.99 or quicker, or exceeding 135 mph. Exception, roll bar permitted in full bodied cars with unaltered firewall and floor running between 10.00 to 10.99

[Prodart]

Thank you for the info i was understanding that the 4 point rollbar was not being allowed for quicker the 11.99

[68_GSS]

Not trying to be a pain, but the minimum requirement is a 5 point bar. Main hoop + two rear braces + one side bar on drivers side.

Not positive, but I believe that the reason NHRA changed the standard from 11.99 to 11.49 was for the high school drag program.

[thebankerstoy]

Now THAT's some GREAT information guy's, THANK YOU!  I guess that I'm glad that I'm out of racing, because I'm never going to put a roll bar or roll cage in my Coronet, so that would mean that I'm stuck with the REALLY lame factory seat belts and non locking seat backe on the drag strip.  I'm not sure why NHRA feels that type of system is safer than what I ran in the car from 1990 through the end of 1997 with no problems. I sure wish that Midnight Special would chime in here and let us know what lead to the elimination of the "Y" style shoulder belts when used with an NHRA approved seat like the RCI seat.

Richard

[68dodge]

NHRA did change to 11.49 and faster must have a cage and 5 point harness. I had to do this in my 66 Dart. You must also buy a new 5 point harness every 2 or 3 years no matter how many times it was used.

[375InStroke]

Another problem with mounting the shoulder harnesses to the floor is that there is nothing restraining you from moving forward, only up.  The mount must be behind, not below.

[thebankerstoy]

Another problem with mounting the shoulder harnesses to the floor is that there is nothing restraining you from moving forward, only up.  The mount must be behind, not below.

In my 66 Coronet, I have all four of the factory seat track studs in place, along with lock washers and lock nuts to mount the RCI seat in place. The Simpson "Y" style shoulder belt mounting bolt passes through the floor pan and a steel plate and is secured with lock washers and lock nuts. The Simpson crotch strap mounting bolt also goes through the floor pan and a steel plate and is secured with lock washers and lock nuts.. The Sinpson lap belts are mounted in the factory locations on either side of the RCI NHRA approved seat, and all of the belts are routed through "slots" in the seat to keep them in place during an accident, so unless the car is TOTALLY destroyed, that seat with me strapped into it, has a MUCH better chance of staying in place and saving my a$$ in a bad situation than the factory parts would ever do. I felt MUCH safer on the track with the aftermarket parts than I EVER did with the factory seat, 40 year old seat belts and no shoulder belts!

I TOTALLY agree that if you DO have a roll cage or a roll bar, it IS better to mount the shoulder belts to the cross bar, but that still doesn't address the original problem asked by 67satty, of what to do in a 12 second car WITHOUT a cage or bar. I just don't understand why NHRA would feel that 1960's factory seats and belts would be a better idea than a set up like I used in my car for almost 8 years with no problems. Even back then, I was required to change my Simpson belts every two years to keep them certified, which also didn't make ANY sense to me, as I could have put a set of 40 year old factory belts in the car and THAT would have been fine with the Tech boys, but the modern Simpson belts were considered unsafe after two years?   

As those of you who have been on bbd for awhile know, I am ALL ABOUT SAFETY and you KNOW that I'm TOTALLY AGAINST street racing or other unsafe activties in our cars, so PLEASE don't take what I'm saying here as a knock against the AWESOME folks on the NHRA tech crews around the country, just understand that my point is this, make rules that make sense, don't outlaw my modern Simpson safety belts and then allow me to use a set of 40 year old factory belts along with other 1960's technology that wasn't safe then, let alone now! 

Richard

[68_GSS]

I understand your point Richard. I think the NHRA is putting their trust in oem belts rather than allowing people to create their own restraint systems in 12 second cars.  Remember that quite a few people wouldn't or couldn't install a system as well thought out as yours.  I also think that this was done to lessen the burden on tech inspectors to have to sort through everyones "invented" restraint systems.

[thebankerstoy]

I understand your point Richard. I think the NHRA is putting their trust in oem belts rather than allowing people to create their own restraint systems in 12 second cars.  Remember that quite a few people wouldn't or couldn't install a system as well thought out as yours.  I also think that this was done to lessen the burden on tech inspectors to have to sort through everyones "invented" restraint systems.

I TOTALLY agree with you, but all NHRA would have to do is write up a revision that gives us an approved version of how they would want this type of restraint system installed, because as you know, there are  LOTS of cars out there runing in that gray zone that don't require a roll cage or roll bar. In fact, most of our non modified or mildly modified street cars run in the 12 to 14 second range, so come on NHRA, give both the racers AND your tech crews a helping hand and PLEASE write up a new revision to handle this problem. 

Richard

[Duster Five-O]

   SFI 16.1 shoulder harness must be mounted level with shoulders to 4 inches below shoulders. Sounds to me like the SFI 16.1 shoulder harness needs to mount to a roll bar or cage.

Level is key. Do not use a harness w/o a cross bar. If you mount the harness too low (floor)your spine will be compressed in a crash.

Use a standard 3 point.