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Topic: Before we F@#Kup! (Read 1148 times)
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fasttcars
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Why would a cowl hood work better than a forward facing scoop? NASCAR is forced to use this type, Pro stock is not, .... just a thought to ponder.  it's cuz a foot & 1/2 high cowl that almost goes over top the roof wouldn't work..all pro stock trucks use them..cuz they had a higher roof top..a forward scoop again is aerodynamically less efficient then a reverse cowl...it's been tested and proven a long time ago |
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dusterdarryl
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well dad , you sure did open a can of worms this time huh? I bet you good ol boys are no further a head now? but... some good food for thort to be had here (no not worms).. I do have to admit that opening the foot vents at 80mph will add air into the car and to dierectly funnel that into a carb top could benifit any cfm, its like a ram affect huh? and a sneaky under the bonnet idea too, now.. Just to add my 2 cents here and please listen, over here in Australia we have this auto race series called the V8 super cars, there must be a website for you to look at but anyway... for decades these V8 super cars have had wild looking carb and injection vents that feed the engines indution form the vented area at the bottom of the front screen, yes they have cowl type scoops like yours but finish abit closer to the screen then yours dose, now so what you say, its been done for years, blah blah BUT HEY! just a minite now... for years now these aussie V8 super cars have been getting 600hp from v8s not alot more than 300 cubes, now these guys scavenge absolutly ever last bit of horse power thay can and they vent the induction from the bottom of the front screen..... more food for thort here Huh?
I would certainly say that if you were to seal the carb to the cowl scoop and extend your cowl scoop to a bit closer to the windsreen and feed your carb from there you would see a benifit,
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Shift as hard as you like, just dont break your arm... (George Hurst)
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fasttcars
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of course you forget to notice that i already did mention that the front grill area is the highest pressure area on the car...but when running a tunnel ram..or carb higher then the hood....it's obvious that you need a scoop or cowl etc.....but on a tunnel ram intake setup it would be very dificult less effective running air from the grill....up and back over to the carbs....that's why they use very efficient aero dynamic forward scoops in prostock cuz that's they only thing that can be made to work effectivly.....now if you were running a flat hood..the grill area would be the most effective area to pull outer air from.....
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dusterdarryl
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of course you did forget to notice these 67dart383 good ol boys arnt running a ram,  in fact another idea would be to close the grill (vent)area at the bottom of the screen like evil twin racing has to give perhaps more air pressure to the cowl intake, check out the evil twin racing pic's in the gallery here |
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Shift as hard as you like, just dont break your arm... (George Hurst)
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540dust
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Fastcars, you left out why the Pro Stock cars don't use them ?
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Supershafts
Full Member
 Offline
Posts: 103
BigBlockDart.Com
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If cowls worked as good as you guy's believe then there would be cowl like ducting all over a F-1 car....
No one is doing as much testing with aero as those guys... Other exceptionally technical cars not using cowl intake design...IRL, CART, Grand-Am, imsa, trans am...then and now....take a look at the trans am then cars....gm's with the lowered cowl hood and the headlight ram air....gotta wonder why that cowl was lowered and closed off and the headlights used and the lower valance...
GA,imsa,ta cars all carry the air even from the front spliter of the car to the rear mounted motor
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]=Long Island Driveshaft=[
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flyboy01
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If cowls worked as good as you guy's believe then there would be cowl like ducting all over a F-1 car....
No one is doing as much testing with aero as those guys... Other exceptionally technical cars not using cowl intake design...IRL, CART, Grand-Am, imsa, trans am...then and now....take a look at the trans am then cars....gm's with the lowered cowl hood and the headlight ram air....gotta wonder why that cowl was lowered and closed off and the headlights used and the lower valance...
GA,imsa,ta cars all carry the air even from the front spliter of the car to the rear mounted motor
Now you are just being silly. F1 car dont have cowl scoops because then dont have cowls!  Modern cars dont use them because of concerns of fuel vapor drifting into the interior, the EPA has killed the cowl. Ram airs have been proven to work also. But he already has a Cowl hood, so why not make the best of it. But if you guys convince him to get rid of his hood, I will be happy to buy it!  And NASCAR still uses the cowl for carb air, the grille for radiator cooling, and valance for brake cooling. So why do you suppose they use the cowl still for carb air? BEACUSE IT WORKS! |
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fasttcars
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Fastcars, you left out why the Pro Stock cars don't use them ?
no i did it is three up.from your repley......it's cuz the carbs are way to high..& the window line to low |
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Supershafts
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 103
BigBlockDart.Com
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Now you are just being silly. F1 car dont have cowl scoops because then dont have cowls! Modern cars dont use them because of concerns of fuel vapor drifting into the interior, the EPA has killed the cowl. Ram airs have been proven to work also. But he already has a Cowl hood, so why not make the best of it. But if you guys convince him to get rid of his hood, I will be happy to buy it! And NASCAR still uses the cowl for carb air, the grille for radiator cooling, and valance for brake cooling. So why do you suppose they use the cowl still for carb air? BEACUSE IT WORKS! Again i say...take a good long look at the old trans am cars, then threw the years, and the new trans am cars, then imsa or rolex or anyother car that has a windshield.. Especially take notice of the gm cars that were offered with the factory cowl hoods and take a clear as day notice that they do in fact have modified lowered and closed off cowls and do use the nose of the car... Nascar has lots of insane rules and will not allow you to use the front of the car for supplying air to the carb..so they have to get it where they are allowed to get it...check everyother old and modern day race car and none of them use the cowl... Especially when you are going to compare a cowl to a scoop facing forward, the facing forward intake is by far superior then a cowl or pass over version of air intake |
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]=Long Island Driveshaft=[
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dusterdarryl
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why add the ram?? these guy run a single carb, dont confuse the answers with more variables, all the dart guys asked is if it was a good Idea to savange air from the wheel wells area, I only pointed out that other types of cars gather air from where they could benifit with the set up they have, I said nothing about a ram, you did.  to you too. |
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Shift as hard as you like, just dont break your arm... (George Hurst)
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dusterdarryl
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of course you did forget to notice these 67dart383 good ol boys arnt running a ram, in fact another idea would be to close the grill (vent)area at the bottom of the screen like evil twin racing has to give perhaps more air pressure to the cowl intake, check out the evil twin racing pic's in the gallery here no ....that's why i also said or a carb higher then hood.....the tunnel ram was put in their for your own reference... does anyboby read the hole comments anymore  did you read the dart guys question?? we are all way off the topic here, just remember these guys run on a tight budget, they dont run a nascar or F1 its an old street strip dart, , now come back down to earth and try to answer the dart guys question with good ol low tech common sence and budget in mind. Geez no wonder we've lost so many members in the last 2 years, |
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Shift as hard as you like, just dont break your arm... (George Hurst)
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Supershafts
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 103
BigBlockDart.Com
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Im answering the forward vs cowl question, i already answered the cowl theory..
Best answer....If i was going to look to go thru any trouble of getting air to the carb....without a pro stock style scoop....i would put it next to the headlights or just below the bumper and above the valance
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]=Long Island Driveshaft=[
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fasttcars
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Especially when you are going to compare a cowl to a scoop facing forward, the facing forward intake is by far superior then a cowl or pass over version of air intake no offense but your wrong[i don't speak theory's i talk real world]...again a forward scoop also technically slows the car down because of aerodynamic drag[as well as makes hp cuz it's pulling air in].. .wear as the reverse cowl only pulls air in..and is aerodynamically more efficient......hey if we can't discuse things that are directly related ..what's the point of even talking... but ok back to the main topic....because 67383dart's car already has a reverse cowl....the simplest thing to start off with is to take complete advantage of it.....then possibly as a experiment also run air from the grill...[considering it's gona be a waay bigger job to route it efficiently].....either way sealing off the outside air to the underhood air is gona pick this baby up...also at the same time your gona have to jet up cuz with the sealed hood the engine is gona run leaner good luck  |
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flyboy01
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I bet he is regretting starting this thread. Oh well, it was good entertainment. |
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Supershafts
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 103
BigBlockDart.Com
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Especially when you are going to compare a cowl to a scoop facing forward, the facing forward intake is by far superior then a cowl or pass over version of air intake no offense but your wrong[i don't speak theory's i talk real world]...again a forward scoop also techincally slows the car down because of aerodynamic drag[as well as makes hp cuz it's pulling air in].. .wear as the reverse cowl only pulls air in..and is aerodynamically more efficient......hey if we can't discuse things that are directly related ..what's the point of even talking... but ok back to the main topic....because 67383dart's car already has a reverse cowl....the simplest thing to start off with is to take complete advantage of it.....then possibly as a experiment also run air from the grill...[considering it's gona be a waay bigger job to route it efficiently].....either way sealing off the outside air to the underhood air is gona pick this baby up...also at the same time your gona have to jet up cuz with the sealed hood the engine is gona run leaner good luck If you don't speak theory then why is it no real race car racing is using the cowl design...Every car and class of racing is using the spliter, the front nose or scoop, again even the T/A cars of old modified and closed the cowl...FACT not a theory They did it then and do it now |
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]=Long Island Driveshaft=[
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fasttcars
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why add the ram?? these guy run a single carb, dont confuse the answers with more variables, all the dart guys asked is if it was a good Idea to savange air from the wheel wells area, I only pointed out that other types of cars gather air from where they could benifit with the set up they have, I said nothing about a ram, you did. to you too. oh.. that one wasn't directed at you it's cuz supershafts&540dust brought up why they don't use them in pro stock cars...that was the only reason i mentioned it again...  |
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dusterdarryl
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can we get back to helping the dart guys please? we are dealing with a 383 dart that has a single 850 carb, the guys wanted to know if sealing the carb to the cowl scoop and feeding it from the front wheel wells would be a good idea, personly I think not but, to seal the carb to the cowl and lengthen the cowl toward the screen abit and feed the carb from that pressured area would be a good idea, thats it from me Im outa here.
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Shift as hard as you like, just dont break your arm... (George Hurst)
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67Dart383
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can we get back to helping the dart guys please? we are dealing with a 383 dart that has a single 850 carb, the guys wanted to know if sealing the carb to the cowl scoop and feeding it from the front wheel wells would be a good idea, personly I think not but, to seal the carb to the cowl and lengthen the cowl toward the screen abit and feed the carb from that pressured area would be a good idea, thats it from me Im outa here.
Thanks Dusterdarryl for keeping everyone focused on the original topic of this post while we were away. Well im sorry guys I had a good descriptive post to tell you guys but I accidently hit the exit button on my laptop. So its going to be short and sweet this time sorry guys. First run I raced a 2000 Mustang GT I tore him up by 3 car lengths and more. I ran a 12.888 @ 109.03 with a 2.233 60ft. Thats with the air cleaner off. Second run raced a 2000 GMC Sonoma with big 10inch wide slicks, well I beat him because he red light but we ran the same time. I ran a 12.94 @ 108.97 mph with the air pan on top of the carb sealed to the hood. He had a 1.777 60 ft, but I stil would have beat him if he didn't red light. After this run our carb was messing up because our front float level kept going down after each run, so we tried raising the fuel pressure, and we noticed the carb wasn't opening up all the way like we had it before. So we tried getting that to open but it still was the same. Also the car was stumbling off the line even when driving around the pits there is a little stumble in the power. Anways we ran again against a 2000 something Mustang Cobra, as I was starting my burnout the carb back fired as soon as I hit the gas, so I kept into it pulling the fire back doen, I did my burnout we both left the line spinning I was ahead of him the whole time I thought he wasn't racing me I ended up beating him with a 12.645 @ 107.70. After I saw the video he was racing me he missed a gear about past the 1/8 mile mark, but anyways I was still ahead of him, I remember now I short shifted accidently on that run. I had a 1.972 60 ft, so I could of ran faster if i hadn't short shifted. Last run same thing no air cleaner or air pan, it still stumbled I ran a 12.76 @ 107.51 mph with a 2.040 60 ft. During all those runs our carb wasn't opening up all the way, remember we have ran a 12.32 @ 108.72 mph with a 1.872 60ft on that run the carb still wasn't opened all the way. So we have us a low 12 sec Yellow Big Block Dart ready and capable to beat a Mooooostang. |
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67 Dart 383 MP590, Crane 1.6 R/R, headers, 906, 850 MIghty Demon, Torker II, 3inch exhausts, 727 R/M, 9.5 PTC 4500 flash stall w/ 2800 brake stall, 8 3/4 rear with P/T 4.30, on MT ET St Rad 11.99@112.55mph  |
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fasttcars
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don't forget.....when sealing the carb to allow only outside air the engine will run leaner...so you will have to jet up  |
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dusterdarryl
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ok 1; why isnt the carb opening all the way? it should only be a cable ajsutment, ?
2; are you strating your burnout in 2nd?
3; what do you mean a stumble in the power?
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Shift as hard as you like, just dont break your arm... (George Hurst)
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67Dart383
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1.The pedal does not have anof travel in itself to open carb all the way!2.Starting in 2nd and shifting to 3rd during burnout! 3. The carb starting acting crazy all night, it would stumble during launch, seem to load up in staging lanes , frt float was down below window after each pass , back was not, we didn't have carb problems last T&T  . So we will have to do more research on carb pan. Thanks Everyone! |
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67 Dart 383 MP590, Crane 1.6 R/R, headers, 906, 850 MIghty Demon, Torker II, 3inch exhausts, 727 R/M, 9.5 PTC 4500 flash stall w/ 2800 brake stall, 8 3/4 rear with P/T 4.30, on MT ET St Rad 11.99@112.55mph |
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flyboy01
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1.The pedal does not have anof travel in itself to open carb all the way!2.Starting in 2nd and shifting to 3rd during burnout! 3. The carb starting acting crazy all night, it would stumble during launch, seem to load up in staging lanes , frt float was down below window after each pass , back was not, we didn't have carb problems last T&T . So we will have to do more research on carb pan. Thanks Everyone! Sounds like a bit of dirt or something in the needle/seat assy, so the front bowl can't fill fast enough. |
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67Dart383
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Yea , Flyboy01, I pulled carb Sat nite, 1st thing I noticed while pouring gas out! The main vacuum port was not capped, guess it fell off. Then I tore frt Bowl off and cleaned float , needle & seat and put back together. Now of course the float adj gasket started leaking , had to get new gaskets. Now all is back to normal! So Sun nite we took it to 1/8 mile track. We got their late , so we made 3 quick time trials , 8.62, 8.21,8.30 , we put carb pan on after 1st run, so now we didn't want to mess with it. Dialed in 8.15 for footbreak class ( $500 winner ) 10 entry fee. 1st race , we ran a SuperPro Firebird, he redlted on us!  2nd race we broke out dialed 8.20, ran 8.19  So now we waited till the next round T&T and adj timing and stalled to 2500 rpm( we hadn't before) , those tires cried out and she hooked somewhat, ran 7.98 @88mph and 60ft 1.90, the Kidd made us the 1st in our little group to break into 7's at this track , the others wear 10-11 slicks. Now this came close to our best at Memphis Motorsports 7.92@88 1/4 12.37@109 60ft 1.87. so I can't really say if carb pan will help until we can make back to back passes with no other changes !! Bill |
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67 Dart 383 MP590, Crane 1.6 R/R, headers, 906, 850 MIghty Demon, Torker II, 3inch exhausts, 727 R/M, 9.5 PTC 4500 flash stall w/ 2800 brake stall, 8 3/4 rear with P/T 4.30, on MT ET St Rad 11.99@112.55mph |
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flyboy01
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Hot damn! Forgot to mention, by using the carb pan, you get more consistant temps, so the car gets more consistant also.
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DustBuster
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The headers will also heat the tube as it passes to the fender area. Plus the added weight of the tubing and parts. Plus the 90 degree bends. The cowl ALWAYS works the best.
Too bad its a chivvy design |
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