400 OR 440

[1967dart406]

MET WITH MY MACHINIST THIS WEEKEND AND WE SAT DOWN AND WERE DISCUSSING MY PLANS FOR MY NEW MOTOR.  i WAS PLANNING ON USING MY 400 AND STROKING IT TO 500"  OR SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINES.

THE QUESTION WE ARE FACING IS WHETHER OR NOT TO USE THE 400 BLOCK IVE GOT KNOW OR USE A 440 BLOCK BECAUSE IT WILL REQUIRE LESS MACHINE WORK 

THE MOTOR WILL BE ALL TRACK AND WILL NEED TO RUN CONSISTENT DUE TO THE FACT THAT I WILL BE BRACKET RACING.
(JUST WANT TO BE A FAST BRACKET CAR)

MY HEADS ARE MOST LIKELY BE EDDYS THAT I WILL SEND OFF TO BE GASKET MATCHED AND HAVE THE INTAKE AND HEADS FLOWED TOGETHER

JUST WONDERING WHAT YOUR OUTLOOK WOULD BE.  MY MACHINIST IS VERY GOOD VERY REPUATABLE AND A LITTLE PRICEY BUT HAS DONE SEVERAL MOTORS FOR ME AND I HAVE HAD NO ISSUES AND HE IS CURRENTLY DOING ALL THE MACHINE WORK ON MY DADS TURBO VW MOTOR THAT WE WILL BE STARTING NEXT MONTH

[allblknblue]

Wow, now that's a machinist! He does VWs AND Mopars!? I've heard that 440s are better for strokers but why not just use what you've got?

[1967dart406]

hes real good little pricey for the area but you get what you pay for.  just not sure of the durability of the 400 and if by putting the bigger crank in it and clearancing the block if i will be jepordizing the integrity of the block to much.  he did recommend putting in either motor a main cap girdle.  he doesnt speacialize in any one thing just takes his time and does his research on anything he touches.

[StripeHOG]

I'd run a 446 for a year or two.... Save some money and buy a good block in a couple years..... you've got mirror's don't you 

[bOb shingler]

building the motor is only the begining. from my experience the "b" are by far easier to install in a a-body which is what i'll assume you'll be doing. easier to use in the chassis headers. if it's going in a b or e-car then you'll be way ahead with a "rb" . you'll be able to get a 4.250" stroke in with less grinding but with a tad bit more clearancing a 4.500 can fit . i'd suggest a 440-1 head instead of the eddy's to get the most out of you motor.

[JD451]

I would use the 400 block, do you really need 500 cubes, you can build a 470, i don't think its that much more then a 451, how fast do you want to go, you can easily run 10.2s-10.3s with a 451 in a 31-3200 lb. A body, a 470 should put you at 10.0s or better. 440 source has stroker kits fairly cheap!

[400 dart kid]

ok, It is morer of an advantage to use the b block. you can bore it out more for one. the 400 was the largest production stock bore of the time. another thing, you would be better to god with a forged 440 crank, grind the mains on the crank down to fit, and use the .990 piston pins that the b block uses. this will give you 451, whitch i have seen run the tail off of 500 and up cube motors. I know i am young, but some engine combos work better than others. you have th massive bore of the 400, and the stroke of the 440, and less friction on the mains, and less weight on the whole rotating assembly( pistons, rods, ......). It is alot of work, but well worth it in the end. and the eddie heads are 84 cc chamber. bad move for a stroker. you will want about 10-1 compression, so i would go with some old 516's or even 906 closed chamber heads. good luck. i wish i had the money to build my 400 into a stroker.

[Steve DeTar]

The 400 block is stronger than the 440 in the main saddle area.  I know a guy that runs nine's with his 500 inch, 400 block.  How much power do you anticipate?  It cost a little more to do a 400, but in terms of sheer strength, it is worth it.

[moparteacher]

I say go with the 440 block. Don't sacrafice rod to stroke ratio for a b block. If you go with the tall block you may still run a longer rod, say 7.1", with a 4.15 crank or longer. Good rod to stroke ratio moves optimum piston speed higher into a RPM range. A Lower rod to stroke ratio moves optimum piston speed lower in RPM range. The more power strokes in a givin time, the faster the elapsed time.

7.1/4.15= 1.71 to 1

6.86/4.15= 1.65 to 1

7.1/4.25= 1.67 to 1

So a stroker crank of 4.25 with a 7.1 rod still gives a marginally good ratio (I prefer 1.8 to 2.0). It also allows clearance for the counter weights with mallory metal and a light weight piston (550 grams) made by Ross, and sold at 440 source with a compression distance of 1.471 with .990 pins, and 505 cubic inches. The longer rod also puts less force on the thrust wall and helps focus the energy downward instead of sideways. Just an idea.

Moparteacher

[moparteacher]

Whoops.

6.768/4.15=1.63 to 1

[bOb shingler]

7.231" rod, 4.250" stroke= 1.70 rod ratio. that's with a 1.094" pin and an oil rail support. with a .990" pin you could get an even better rod ratio.

[pwmax]

I personaly wouldn;t loose sleep over the rod ratio. Its pretty over rated. The only real advantage to a longer rod, is a little less friction, slightly slower piston speed, and a lighter piston, which, are all positives. There is really no power in the rod length itself. Lots of good points above, and, you have to ask yourself, what are your performance goals? If you want a tourquey low rpm bracket brute, then, a 500 with Eddy heads would be a great choice. It would also allow a milder converter, and less gear, to still run good, and, make a ton of low maintenannce passes. What are your performance expectations? As far as blocks go, you already have a worked over 400. 406 i gather, which means, its been done up. Is it a budget piece, or, a good solid motor with some value? In my expierience, it has always been more financialy beneficial, to sell what you already have, to help finance your new project. Because, all the money you stuck in your old motor, is thrown out the window. If it was a bucks down rebuild, done on the cheap, then it might be worth taking the guts out of your existing motor. For an example, I also do all makes and models of engines, but mopars are my favorite, and, I have a guy that I have done a bunch of work for in the past, he has a pretty stout BBC, 461, aftermarket crank and rods, good pistons, brodix heads, roller cam etc etc, about 740hp, now, he wants to step it up. So, he was talking a new rotating assembly, new cam, etc etc, and, was going to sell his used rotating assembly. Its a good, solid motor, that makes good power. He wanted to make it a 496. I added it all up, and showed him, sell your existing motor, complete. He sold it to a buddy of his, for $6000. A pretty good deal for the buddy, and, him. Now, when its all said and done, he will have less that $3000 into a completely new, 496, that makes over 800hp. He would have had double or more into his old motor, replacing parts, machine work, etc, and, would have gotten little for the left over parts, if he could have even sold them. Its pure economics. And pretty simple when you do the math.


Frank
Advanced performance
www.get-ap.com

[1967dart406]

THE BLOCK I HAVE IS DEAD STOCK AND HAS ALREADY BEEN SONIC CHECKED AND EVERYTHING IS GOOD AS FAR AS THE BLOCK GOES.
WILL BE A MATTER OF BUILDING THE 400 OR SELLING.  FROM THE SOUNDS OF EVERYBODY THE 400 IS GOING TO BE THE WAY TO GO.  440 SOURCE HAS ALREADY BEEN CONTACTED AND WILL BE SUPPLYING THE STROKER KIT FOR EITHER WAY THAT I SHOULD GO.  DOESNT HAVE TO BE 500 CUBES SO MAYBE I WILL LOOK A LITTLE SMALLER

THANKS GREG

[Steve DeTar]

Go for cheap if's it's your first one. Do a 440....then...after your done with it build a serious one....

[67devildart]

I've heard from too many people that the 400 will turn the RPM's and is just an overall better rod-to-stroke ratio...  Unknown whether this is true or not, but I KNOW that the 400 is smaller and lighter than the 440.  ALSO, the 440 is a torque MONSTER and will destroy anything that isn't tied down!!!  I'm doing the 470 buildup personally, seems like a better way to go, especially w/ the 230 thick wall 400 block.

NOW, the issue I have is w/ headers.  NO ONE makes low deck headers to fit in an A body.  UNLESS you run Indy heads w/ the raised exhaust ports, then you can get the WAY-too-expensive TTI's!

[Dono]

Any one that says that rod stroke is no big deal must work on Chebys too......

Lets see the good points of have a short rod stroke is you run a huge valve, intake runner and the motor is peeky.

Stock ports I would only go to 1.7 rod stroke or your torque curve will suffer and the gears in the trany have a hard time keeping it all to the ground.  There is a reason the second gear is the power gear in mopars.  Put the torque to work for you and it will be easyer to tune and get down the track the same each time.  If you make a HP motor and the air changes on you the consistancy will suffer.....peeky motor.

With a 500" motor with stock port windows your going to make a ton of torque and yes it will be alot more fun to drive.  If you plan on tearing her down every year do the low deck if you want to build it and leave it in the car for a few years then build the 440 based 500.  The piston hight gets hard on everything when is gets shorter than 1.30"s.

The best motor for a stock port window that is a true race motor is the low deck 472"er.  She will spin to 7000rpm's with the stock ports and not run out of air.  You will have a liveable rod stroke and piston hight of 1.30"s.  You will give up little low end torque to get the car moving and the RPM's to make the HP.  You sould see 600hp if not more and see a good 10sec run.

To each their own but if I was spending your money this is the motor I would build.  Fits in the car great and you can add more cam and heads later if you want.

Don.

[mopowers]

Might be a stupid question,  but why would a 400 be more expensive to build than a 440.  Aren't all the kits at 440source the same price?  please shed some light      

[StripeHOG]

$1400 for all I think

[1967dart406]

MORE MONEY IN MACHINE WORK

[mopowers]

MORE MONEY IN MACHINE WORK

What kind of machine work are we talkin?  Just clearancing the block, or is there a lot more to it?

[JD451]

MORE MONEY IN MACHINE WORK

What kind of machine work are we talkin?  Just clearancing the block, or is there a lot more to it?

It depends on what stage you go too, 451s takes no extra block work, i don't think the 472 takes much, maybe just notching the block, as for the 500, i don't know. i paid an extra 225.00 to build my 451 for the crank work, i got a hold of a 440 steel crank & rods for trade on an intake that i bought for 20.00 bucks. if you go with a stroker kit, i would use the 400 block and go with a 472, if all that needs to be done is notch the block, you can do that yourself.

[bOb shingler]

for some reason i throught tti's were made for "B" motors in an a-body. 

[allblknblue]

for some reason i throught tti's were made for "B" motors in an a-body. 

?? They're made for both...?  You mean you thought they were ONLY for "B" motors?

[bOb shingler]

yep

[sr71mopar]

Go for the 500

[Maximus_Wedges]

I've got a 472 type b engine as mentioned above. I belive it is the fastest mopar for the $

[340wedge]

Hi all,

I did select 4.25" stroker kit for 400 block from 440Source (512 cid). Key reasons was 1.) bigger is better 2.) B block, Indy heads and TTI headers should fit to my Duster without cutting anything 3.) With longer stroke and shorter rods (6.535") the piston skirt is longer vs. with 4.15" stroke and 6.768" rods => More durable.

I have not started assembly yet.

Marko