70' Swinger pro-touring setup

[M Gerko]

Hey, I don't post much here, but figured this topic fit this section of this board best.  I'm wanting to do some suspension upgrades this winter, not sure what all I want to do and who's stuff to go with.  I'd say ultimately going with an AlterK up front and the RMS rear setup, probably 17s all around, but I can't afford to do it all at once.  SO I'll be looking to maybe to brakes/wheels this winter, and then the rest perhaps in a year or so.  Right now I'd say I have a nice driving muscle car, a great cruiser.  It isn't all over the place when driven on the back roads or swaying like a ship or anything like that, I just know it can be much better.  Really for not having sway bars even it's pretty good.

What I've got:

70' Swinger, SB w/ TKO, 8 3/4 - all steel - full interior
Front: .92" T-bars, poly bushings, no sway bar, Firm Feel rebuilt box, 8 year old NAPA shocks
Rear:  Calvert Racing mono leafs, 8 year old NAPA shocks, 3" relocated springs

What I'm trying to figure out

Rear:  Want to add Rancho 9000 shocks and Caltrac bars.  Maybe a set of sliders instead of shackles, maybe a 7/8" sway bar (brand???) and perhaps move the spring eye back 3/4" for more clearance.  Probably look at a 285/40/17 (26" tall) tire.  Convert to 4.5" pattern, disc brakes to match front.

Front: Replace the 4-piston KH SBP setup.  Have the 73+ spindle already.  Need UCA figure RMS tubulars.  Sway bar (brand??? and size???)  Probably keep the .92" bars for now.  Brakes.... this is the big question.  I bought a set of Wilwood hubs that I thought about building a setup around.  I like the 4 piston Wilwoods, but am concerned about the lack of dust seals on a heavily street driven car like mine.  Viper calipers just look more and more attractive.  Maybe a Viper caliper on a Wilwood disc or the SRT disc I'm hearing about?

I figure whatever I get for the front, I want to be able to use in the future, I.E. going with the 73+ spindle.  Brake system is the biggest question really.  Also will the Calvert rear work well or bad in trying to get better handling?  I'm sure there are things that'll come up that I haven't thought about, but I am in the planning stages still, so THOUGHTS??

[karfixer]

This is what I'm doing/have done with my 68 Barracuda, it should be relevent to your car as well.
 I have the .92" bars and think they are just fine, firm but not harsh. 1" Addco sway bar, not the prettyiest thing but inexpensive and does work. Edlebrock IAC shocks all around. 11.75" brake rotors with sliders. I've got Bill's heim jointed strut rods-not installed yet, and will probably use the heim jointed UCAs  down the line. I have the 9/16" tie rods, but have mancini solid adjusters for them, the adjusters are the most flexible, not the solid rod ends, if I needed new I'd probably spring for the 11/16" with solid adjusters. Beefing up the K-member is on the agenda as well. www.firmfeel.com has some pics for inspiration and will do yours  if you like. I made some lower boxes for the LCAs and added a support for the sway-bar bracket, I've broken the funky Addco ones, so I bought some with the O.E.tabs. Next is subframe connectors/torque boxes and some other chassis reinforcments. I'm not convinced I need a rear bar, I have an Addco 3/4" one that I will install after the frame reinforcements are done and the alignment is dialed in. As it is the frame twists so much it's scary, and the snap-throttle oversteer convinces me to tighten up the 39 Y.O. car first .
 I plan on getting the triangulated 4 link, but I prefer the t-bar suspension to coil overs, so no Alter-K for me, the rack and pinion steering is a big upgrade, but I'm a working guy and can't see spending that kind of scratch.
Bottom line, I'd recommend optimising what you have with a few upgrades if you are really gonna go with the Alter-K/4link combo.

[Bakaruda]

I have a Alterkation, I am swaping my leafs for Bills 4 bar setup. I have some costume leafs and a 1in bar with Preformer shocks.

[abodyjoe]

I figure whatever I get for the front, I want to be able to use in the future,

  if you plan on going with the alter-k in the future then don't waste the money on a 73 - up  disc brake set up..  it is not gonna fit the alter-k.    best vet is to leave it alone for now and save for the altewr-k.

[rjsjea]

I agree w/ AbodyJoe......I did suspension now like 3times on my car and finally got the AlterK and tri 4-link.  You will save the money in the long run

[fourspeed]

I agree with Joe too. If you have the itch to do something now, you could get Bill's upper control arms. It's my understanding that he'll sell you an AlterK without the upper arms if you already have them, and the UCA's he sells are the same as the ones the AlterKtion uses. So, no money down the toilet when you switch to an AlterKtion.

Other than that, I would leave it alone until you're ready to go all out.

[M Gerko]

Thanks for the posts, it would appear I'm misinformed on the Alter-K.  I thought that it was based around using the 73+ spindles?  Which spindles does it use?  Is this something that has changed?  I thought atleast when it first came out it was utilizing those spindles.  That's why I was thinking I could "build" towards it.  That throws a bit of a monkey wrench in things....

[MyCreation68]

yeah the alterktion shares many parts with the Mustang II front suspension parts if I'm not mistaken. so really all you can do is buy the upper control arms to use FMJ spindles or 73+ abody spindles. unless you want to try and build your own alterktion which I do not advise

[abodyjoe]

as far as i know the alter-k always used mustang II style spindles...  its mainly because there are so many brake options with a mustang style spindles.....

[M Gerko]

I see.

Are the sway bars the same between the stock LCA and the AlterK LCA???

What about track width - same as stock or different?

[MyCreation68]

I think they would be close but I'm sure seeing as their custom built pieces that they would be different.

[M Gerko]

So really there's nothing much that is inter-usable - just the upper a-arms basically?  Hmmm.

[MyCreation68]

well I honestly doubt anything is interchangable other then the upper control arms but that really up to bill to confirm

[M Gerko]

Kinda of a bummer, hoped to build up to it - but if I can't I can't I guess.  Thanks for the info.  Might just drop Bill an email if he doesn't chime in here.

What about the rear?  Anybody using a Cal-vert racing setup in conjunction with an AlterK, or a "g-machine" oriented setup?  I'd think the softer spring rate would be helpful compared to like S/S or XHD springs.  Not sure how the trac bars would work in that application.  I thought I'd read about some people getting a good balance running them, increase straight line traction but still good handling.  Anybody doing this, or looked into it?

[karfixer]

I would NOT get the cal tracks/9000s for the rear, that would cost half as much as the 4 link. I can't say I know of anyone useing that for cornering, since it is primarily for drag racing, but is $$ down the tubes for your goal.  .02

[MyCreation68]

you might as well save your money and buy the proper stuff even tho it costs more. bill's Street lynx kit is probably your best option if you don't want to do a bunch of modifications to attain your goal

[abodyjoe]

I see.

Are the sway bars the same between the stock LCA and the AlterK LCA???

What about track width - same as stock or different?

  the sway bar is different too...    track width is slightly different too..  depends on the brakes as to how much...  best bet is to just call bill and he can explain everything for ya.

[abodyjoe]

RMS   Phone - 570-443-7440

[M Gerko]

AbodyJoe - are you lifting the front tire w/ the RMS rear installed???  I know I read you were putting the setup in, wasn't sure if that was a before or after shot.

Yea it's looking like there's little to no point in getting anything now if I can't use it later.

[andyf]

Well do you want to drag race or go around corners?  That is the first question to answer.  You're original post sounded like you wanted to corner carve when you talked about 17 inch rims, Viper brakes, etc.  But then you started talking about Calverts and 4x4 shocks.

A good road race A body car can be built using stock type front suspension with bigger anti-sway bars, bigger torsion bars, high performance 17 inch tires, 13 inch Viper brakes, etc.  Stock rear suspension will get you around a road course just fine if you add a small rear anti-sway bar and some good shocks.

[MyCreation68]

Well do you want to drag race or go around corners?  That is the first question to answer.  You're original post sounded like you wanted to corner carve when you talked about 17 inch rims, Viper brakes, etc.  But then you started talking about Calverts and 4x4 shocks.

A good road race A body car can be built using stock type front suspension with bigger anti-sway bars, bigger torsion bars, high performance 17 inch tires, 13 inch Viper brakes, etc.  Stock rear suspension will get you around a road course just fine if you add a small rear anti-sway bar and some good shocks.

wow thats a beauty you've got there andy.

can i bug you to elaborate on your setup?

[abodyjoe]

AbodyJoe - are you lifting the front tire w/ the RMS rear installed??? I know I read you were putting the setup in, wasn't sure if that was a before or after shot.

Yea it's looking like there's little to no point in getting anything now if I can't use it later.

   yes it brings the wheel up about 3 "   with bills front end and rear suspension...  it is the best of both roads..  it handles great on the street and on the drag strip.

[andyf]

The red car above isn't mine, it belongs to one of my customers.  It has 275/40-17 tires on 17x9 rims at all four corners.  Stock type rear suspension with 340 springs and a small anti-sway bar.  Up front is one of my 13 inch Viper kits as well as FFI upper control arms, a big anti-sway bar and some big torsion bars.  It runs pretty hard at the track and still drives on the street.

[MyCreation68]

hmm I'm curious on the wheels. I'm looking at running 18x9's that have a 5.5 backspacing with a +12 offset. Does this sound similar to your customers car? I'm assuming stock front k member. very nice. whats he running under the hood?

[Stroked GT]

andy, was the rear minitubbed to fit the 9 inch wheels, or just move the springs?? i want to run 9 inchers up front and in the back too. what did you or the owner have to do

[M Gerko]

OK.  The red Valiant is definetly becoming an internet legend fast.  I've read through the Moparts posts on it, pretty clean car for sure, effective as could be it would seem.  As far as the Caltracs and "4x4" shocks, I believe I've read on other boards (pro-touring.com) that guys have ran them on their applications getting the best of both worlds.  I wanted to ask here since this is a more specific forum to my body style. 

Basically I'm after the "best of both worlds" situation.  I'm not looking to go run road courses every weekend, or hit the drags every Weds night either.  But should I want to do either, I'd like to be able to do both - get the car more modern.  I guess above that the car is street driven a LOT, so perhaps more then anything I want it to perform best there.  Be a "fast" street car.  "Pro-touring" is quite an open term, it means a little something different to everybody it seems.  To me basically I look at it as a high HP car, pleanty of modern technology, and geared at a balanced vehicle that can get it in a straight line and carve up the road as good as any 30k sports car.

Originally, I thought if the Alterk was based off the 73+ spindle, I could do my brakes and wheels now, then swap the K frame out later.  Like a lot of forum guys, I don't have 10k to drop on the suspension of my toy all at once.  So I guess really I'm stuck looking at saving my money and doing all at once, or maxing out a stock setup to do something like the red Valiant.  Guess it's a tough choice as to which route to go, that's why I wanted to post here and get the input that I've gotten thus far, which I greatly appreciate.

[andyf]

Leaf springs with kicker shocks will run 11's at the drag strip and work on the street and work pretty well on a road course.  That is an inexpensive and fairly easy setup to install.  Add an aluminum center section, a tuneable anti-sway bar and some good shocks and you should be in good shape.  There really aren't any good shocks made for Mopars so if you get serious you either need custom shocks or else change the mounting brackets over so you can an off the shelf Koni from a different application.  Or step up to the big time and use circle track shocks.  Rear discs will save some weight and make the braking system more linear but they really aren't needed unless the car is super fast (more than 150 mph on the front straights)

The stock front suspension will get you into the 11's, works fine on the street and will get it done on a road course.  The biggest deal is to put some big brakes up front.  Even the 13 inch Viper rotors will turn blue after a hard day at the track.  Smaller brakes like 11.75 stock setup or the Wilwood setups just go up in smoke.  Baer has some big brakes for Mopars but they cost $3500 or so for the fronts.  The 13 inch Viper kit that I designed goes out the door for around $2000.

Tim's car (the red one above) hangs just fine with Vettes and Vipers on the road course.  A ZO6 with DOT slicks and a good driver will take it but at that point the car is running too fast to be really "fun".  That is, when you start to really race then it is a lot of work and the expenses pile up.  Most people just aren't going to push their cars that hard.  The key tricks are to keep the weight off, run good tires, have a stiff chassis, and get some driver training.

[Stroked GT]

does your viper kit fit the stock suspension or the alter k?? i have wilwoods right now but would like either the viper kit or the srt8 brakes. got any pics of the viper setup, or more pics of the red car??

[MyCreation68]

it's for the stock k member. check out andy's website. http://www.arengineering.com/

if your going to go with that kit check out http://www.makeitmopar.com/
I'll likely be buying my viper calipers from them seeing as they have them for 375 each side and pads for 150 for both sides.

[M Gerko]

AndyF - If I stepped up to the Viper calipers now, has anyone you know used them on an Alterk?  Probably would take some custom brackets, I'm sure there is a disc that would fit the Mustang II hub and be the right size for the Viper calipers.  I really like the idea of using those calipers, this might be a way to "build" my setup a little now.  Also do you know what the track width is with your setup vs the alterk?  Could I get wheels now and have the backspace work later?  Possibly with a small spacer later/now?