5.7 in 4-speed 64 dart

[64 Dart in a Donut]

i might be buying a 5.7 hemi out of a 2008 durango will it bolt up to my 4-speed out of a 68 dart, where do i get a flywheel, moter mounts, headers, ignition and carb intake

[MomsR/T]

I don't think Bill likes it for VENDORS such as myself to advertise here and I don't believe I've ever monkey-ed with the rules.............but I have all these answers and this is what my company does.

My shop here in Houston Frank Racing Inc specializes in these motors in all sorts of applications...........

Before I cross the line I'd like to ask the Moderators how to handle this situation with respect to Bill and the rules as they have been inforced to others. I could send this info via PM but then I would still be breaking the rules so MOD's please advise.

[flyboy01]

I don't think this is in any way a violation, he asked a question, and you answered it.

[Bakaruda]

Bill is cool with info. I would say just don't buy his stuff and copy it then try to sell it here.

[Joe-Dokes]

I've been planning on installing a modern Hemi in a 67 Dart for a couple of years now. 

Here is some of the information that I've found out. Many of the statements below are MY OPINIONS, based upon the information that I've gleamed from a variety of sources.  As always do your own research as your mileage may vary.

Mounting the Motor:

Best-- Bill Reilly makes his Alter-K-tion complete with 5.7 and 6.1 motor mounts.  This essentially makes the engine a bolt in.  From what I've  been able to gather and please correct me if I'm wrong but on 67 and later A-Bodies it will also allow you to use power rack and pinion while keeping all the stock accessories.  Overall a very clean set up.  If you already need to completely rebuild your front end and add disk brakes this ends up being within a few hundred dollars and you get a very clean reliable set up.  TTI makes headers that will bolt up to this kit. 

Okay-- TTI sells mounts made by schumacher.  They will allow you bolt a modern hemi into your car, but Power Steering IS NOT an OPTION.  http://www.ttiexhaust.com/

Fabricate your own-- Cheapest but most time consuming,  here is a link to a guy that made his own solid mount elephant ears http://www.hawayaracing.com/Barracuda.htm

Headers--

Best--  TTI sells them for either Bills set up or Their own, they are however NOT interchangeable.  So you need to decide which method your going with prior to ordering.

Unknown--  Hooker sells headers that will fit a B body, they MAY now have a set that fits an A-Body

Cheapest-- Hot Rod did a swap in which they were able to use the Log type exhaust manifolds off of a truck and get them to fit. 

Oil Pans

If you go with the alter-K, the rear sump truck oil pan will fit in the car with NO modification.  I do NOT know if the Durango uses the rear sump oil pan or the front sump automotive oil pan.  If you use an automotive engine i.e. an engine out of a Charger, you'll have to go with an aftermarket pan no matter which mounting set up you go with.

If you use the TTI set up you'll need a mid Sump oil pan.  Charlies Oil Pans sells one specific to this application.  You can find them Here. 

Charlie’s Oil Pans
5281 S. Hametown Rd.
Norton OH 44203
(330) 825-3586
E-mail: charliesoilpans@neo.rr.com

Unfortunately he doesn't have a website.

Transmissions--

The bolt pattern for the 5.7 Hemi and small block mopar is essentially the same, the old small block had an extra bolt hole, you simply leave that bolt out.  There is however a .060 difference between the 727 and Modern 5 Speed automatic but many have bolted a 727/904 to a modern hemi without a problem.  As far as using the five speed automatic, serious floor surgery would be required. 

http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/trans.html  Has a flywheel that will allow you to use your four speed.

Electronics--

If you've been reading this far, it probably has occurred to that installing a modern hemi is practically a bolt on project, and it is, until you get to the electrics. 
Depending upon the level of horsepower and the modifications you are going to make to the engine, you may either go with a carb or electronic fuel injection.

Option 1

Stock or mostly stock motor-- Send your computer to Street and Performance http://www.hotrodlane.cc/ and tell them to flash the computer, and buy one of their wiring harnesses.  They actually have pretty good instructions on how to install a modern hemi complete with drive by wire in a hot rod.  You'll end up with a mostly stock motor that with headers puts out close to 400 hp. 

Option 2

Fuel injection you can spend over 3K an buy a completely tunable aftermarket EFI computer from someone like FAST.

Option 3

Aftermarket ignition and carb though mopar performance.  Probably the easiest to install but will not give you anymore horsepower than the stock fuel injection.  Further, by the time you buy the manifold, computer, wiring harness, and carb you will probably have spent a lot less getting the stock fuel injection to work.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Joe Dokes

[MyCreation68]

Electronics--

If you've been reading this far, it probably has occurred to that installing a modern hemi is practically a bolt on project, and it is, until you get to the electrics. 
Depending upon the level of horsepower and the modifications you are going to make to the engine, you may either go with a carb or electronic fuel injection.

Option 1

Stock or mostly stock motor-- Send your computer to Street and Performance http://www.hotrodlane.cc/ and tell them to flash the computer, and buy one of their wiring harnesses.  They actually have pretty good instructions on how to install a modern hemi complete with drive by wire in a hot rod.  You'll end up with a mostly stock motor that with headers puts out close to 400 hp. 

Option 2

Fuel injection you can spend over 3K an buy a completely tunable aftermarket EFI computer from someone like FAST.

Option 3

Aftermarket ignition and carb though mopar performance.  Probably the easiest to install but will not give you anymore horsepower than the stock fuel injection.  Further, by the time you buy the manifold, computer, wiring harness, and carb you will probably have spent a lot less getting the stock fuel injection to work.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Joe Dokes

you left out probably the best option for a cheap tunable efi. You can get the Megasquirt V3.0 MSII board for the efi system. it runs everything the stock system runs and you can tune it yourself. and the board itself only costs about 250 bucks

[MomsR/T]

Many myths and very few truths..........

How bout this................no one looks like they are going to go out and do this over the holiday anyways right?

We're going to build one for my 70 Dart.......if the MOD's will stickie it I believe we'd be willing to do a running log and detailed report on how to really do it to include the in's and out's of the important stuff to do to the motor.

Most parts will be: Frank Racing Inc, XV, and TTI and believe it or not, its not as expensive as you think.

THis would be a no power-anything build just like it is right now in its big block form............

The build is based off of he 5.7 which is the block you rather use due to the pure volume of cores, cost, and block stength over the 6.1

We will take this 3.92 bore and take it to a 4.00" bore and yes, the .080 over bored 5.7 is actually stronger than the stock 4.050 6.1 block in pure stock form. 

We will use the Compstar 4.050 crank and Compstar 6.125 rods and a custom Frank Racing Inc piston for a total of 407 cubic inch motor........

Heads will be Frank Racing Street/Strip heads flowing approx. 330 - 335 @ .600 @ 28" thru a 2.00/1.57 valve and using a gasket matched and lightly massaged XV carb-intake and XV computer w/ harness and stock coils.

The cam is a Frank Racing cam we call the MOAB: 564/555, 222/218, 114 LSA on  fairly fast lobe (and yes its a reverse split)

We will use the STOCK water pump............yet we will adapt my current alt to the bracket so we don't cut up my harness.....

Headers will be Frank Racing stainless steel headers  stepped (1 3/4 to 1 7/8 w/ 3" collectors) and TTI pipes the rest of the way out............

We'll use a very easy to use vacuum secondary Holley..............and you can expect the timing to be something like 10* initial and about 29 - 30* @ 6500

We'll use the small starter, stock flywheel, 727, 9" verter, 3:55 gear w/ 28 x 10.5 tire

We'll tune it on our dyno and I expect 460 - 475 and about the same on torque to the wheels @ 14% loss. I am sure we'll see 400+ torque from 3500 to 5800 - 6000

THe III Gen HEMI is 35# lighter than the LA motors..............so figure this feather weight should make about the same power as my 446 w/ Eddy RPM and small cam yet minus more than 250# off the nose and I bet my gas milage goes from 8mpg to no less than 16 mpg.

THoughts? ANything you rather see? Too much? Too little? Could care less?

[MomsR/T]

BTW.....................before I step on toes or name a brand Bill doesn't like, please message me..................I have nothing but the best of intentions...................

Heck............if I'm right about these motors, Bill will sell a ton more suspensions because this is the real deal.................while it won't replace the big block, it will flat out murder 99% of the stuff on the road. 

[acpat]

get er done...........

[Think3205]

sounds sweet, i bet you could squeeze some more power out of that thing though if i'm not mistaken...   

[Think3205]

Many myths and very few truths..........

How bout this................no one looks like they are going to go out and do this over the holiday anyways right?

We're going to build one for my 70 Dart.......if the MOD's will stickie it I believe we'd be willing to do a running log and detailed report on how to really do it to include the in's and out's of the important stuff to do to the motor.

Most parts will be: Frank Racing Inc, XV, and TTI and believe it or not, its not as expensive as you think.

THis would be a no power-anything build just like it is right now in its big block form............

The build is based off of he 5.7 which is the block you rather use due to the pure volume of cores, cost, and block stength over the 6.1

We will take this 3.92 bore and take it to a 4.00" bore and yes, the .080 over bored 5.7 is actually stronger than the stock 4.050 6.1 block in pure stock form. 

We will use the Compstar 4.050 crank and Compstar 6.125 rods and a custom Frank Racing Inc piston for a total of 407 cubic inch motor........

Heads will be Frank Racing Street/Strip heads flowing approx. 330 - 335 @ .600 @ 28" thru a 2.00/1.57 valve and using a gasket matched and lightly massaged XV carb-intake and XV computer w/ harness and stock coils.

The cam is a Frank Racing cam we call the MOAB: 564/555, 222/218, 114 LSA on  fairly fast lobe (and yes its a reverse split)

We will use the STOCK water pump............yet we will adapt my current alt to the bracket so we don't cut up my harness.....

Headers will be Frank Racing stainless steel headers  stepped (1 3/4 to 1 7/8 w/ 3" collectors) and TTI pipes the rest of the way out............

We'll use a very easy to use vacuum secondary Holley..............and you can expect the timing to be something like 10* initial and about 29 - 30* @ 6500

We'll use the small starter, stock flywheel, 727, 9" verter, 3:55 gear w/ 28 x 10.5 tire

We'll tune it on our dyno and I expect 460 - 475 and about the same on torque to the wheels @ 14% loss. I am sure we'll see 400+ torque from 3500 to 5800 - 6000

THe III Gen HEMI is 35# lighter than the LA motors..............so figure this feather weight should make about the same power as my 446 w/ Eddy RPM and small cam yet minus more than 250# off the nose and I bet my gas milage goes from 8mpg to no less than 16 mpg.

THoughts? ANything you rather see? Too much? Too little? Could care less?

btw, that would be an interesting topic to follow... i'm all about learning new things!

[MomsR/T]

To make it relavent I'll take some pictures of the car now so we can compare..........

[64 Dart in a Donut]

thanks guys ur awsome, it had a problem with one of the heads and was replaced, its basically a long block. since i will have to rebuild it anyways thanks for all the info on your build frank, and the info you've gathered joe. i dont want to make you go out of your way frank but you dont have a website so i cant get your prices. how much would it cost me to mimick your build, or at least buy ur stuff, i can find the other prices myself

[kzcountry]

This has been the most informative forum that I have read concerning a Hemi in a Dart.  I am currently installing a 06 Hemi out of a charger with the auto transmission into a 67 dart with a 74 front suspension.  Does anybody make motor mounts for this configuration.  I hope to start with the engine positioning in a month. Any suggestions I am wide open to listening to any.

[MomsR/T]

TTI makes the motor mounts, however I do NOT like the swap when people keep the facotry computer because its the computer thats been a nightmare for those of us working with the Dodge Trucks and LX cars................the computer will completely freak out and the tranny won't know what to do when considering ESP, ABS, torque inout/output etc etc etc

Us car and truck guys still have torque management which allows the computer to take away power if it feels it will make the car / truck loose control............

The best design is either the carb or the stand-alone computer such as the AEM or the FAST and we can tune both.

As for "our combo"

We can build several motors based upon the 5.7..................a big bore 360, 381 stroker, or 407 stroker....................costs will depend on: short blockk or long block? Dyno tuned or just raw? How much port work? Stock balancer or the ATI? etc etc etc

We can build a 381 or 407 w/ heads, intake and cam minus exhaust and carb for about $7500 w/ options plus core charge ($1000 for heads and block plus mag-check)

We build rod/crank tollerences to a medium, top ring to .024 (safe for small shot), and heads flow 330 - 335 @ .600" / 220-ish @ .600"

The AlterKation can also be made to fit the HEMI according to my understanding.............it also allows more room for headers.

Headers right now are all TTI but we @ Frank Racing Inc now have our first headers made for the LX cars and are sending out our request for a prototype 5.7 in an A-Body (1966+).................based off of demand, B-Body would come soon after.........................and I guess we'd consider E-Body only if we had to. 

Using the early tranny is SOOOOOOOO much easier and makes so much more sense really..................there is just no upside trying to use the modern DCX tranny. NONE!

The only intake worth discussing right now is the XV intake..................however, if someone wanted us to build a EFI combo, then we could use the factory intake which is a REAL REAL REAL nice piece......................

Please continue asking questions.........................ask as many as you like and I'll do my best to answer them all.

Bottom line is this..............

35 pound lighter than an LA motor............
Easy and affordable to make 400 to 450 RWHP............
We already run low 12's and high 11's in 4200 - 4600 pound cars on the stock bottom ends..........
Take away 1000 pounds and we suspect high 10's to low 11's YET we feel with a solid rear end and a good suspension we can cut 1.4 to 1.5 60' times instead of our 1.7 and 1.8 short times.................this would equate to mid to low 10's......................now add a 100 to 150 shot of dope thru a fogger. 

We're not re-inventing the wheel here......................go look at our GM buddies and what they have done with the LS1 and LS2 motors...................they are already doing this and are about 5 to 6 years ahead of the game................

Our small block HEMI is actually a better design than their LSX motors.........better head and better crank position IN MY OPPINION. When we've tuned on the dyno, we also see this in VE numbers according to our tuning software.

[Think3205]

what do you think is the most hp you could get from a naturally aspirated new hemi say 407 stroker? and what about a twin turbo set-up on one of these. have you thought about building one of those? what could we expect out of the motor with turbos?

[MomsR/T]

BTW.............we make 400 rwhp with just heads and cam on the stock bottom end...............that 381 and the 407 will end up making 500 to the wheels with about 11:1 static and about 7.25:1 dynamic.

For the cheapest build of all, we buy the STOCK 5.7 short block, remove the pistons, file-fit the rings, ceramic coat the piston face, blue print the lower, and apply our heads / cam.

This combo can ONLY run a 100 shot safely and we do NOT suggest anything over a 150 on a direct port with consideration to cam overlap (bleed off).

I've mentioned our HEMI GEMI race car before, but we are also building this Dart for the street.............

[MomsR/T]

what do you think is the most hp you could get from a naturally aspirated new hemi say 407 stroker? and what about a twin turbo set-up on one of these. have you thought about building one of those? what could we expect out of the motor with turbos?

If we were contracted to go "all out" and leave nothing on the table, I bet we could get about 525 to the wheels w/ about 12 to 14% loss on the rollers...........this would be reving to 7000 rpm which is the most this valve train can handle due to parts out on the market. (hyd roller)

Turbos?

SHiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet!!!!!

I'm so busy now I haven't considered this....................the time associated with the build would be so consuming that I wouldn't get anything else done and it would suck every dime I ever had....................turbos allow you to go as fast as the block can handle.

All you would have to do is look over at the LSX motors and see what they can do and assume about the same or a little more for us......

My assumption is about 750 to 800 BHP

[MomsR/T]

what people need to understand is that these motors aren't going away and they are FAR FAR better than anything we've ever had before................this is an almost EXACT replica of the P7 motor Dodge is racing in NASCAR................its a REAL HEMI race motor..................and if you don't believe me then you need to take a closer look.

It has some weak spots but until us Dodge folks start to show interest in it, the after market group won't touch it....................


How do I know? Because I talk to them daily and they all say the same thing! "We won't make it because there isn't a market there..........................yet"

[Think3205]

i just read an article in Engine Masters and they built a 712hp blown 5.7 hemi. They used a paxton procharger and they did the cam and head swap first and said about the same as you. they added a cam and tti's and made 481hp at 6,600rpm, then added the heads and made 524hp at 7,000rpm then the paxton procharger and made 712hp at 7,000rpm...

[MomsR/T]

Lemme say this..............all motors are not created equal.

Because of advertisement dollars, little guys like us always get passed over...............HotRod and Popular HotRodding will use parts from their advertisers and I can't afford to advertise there.................hell, I really can't afford to do crap.

ANYWAYS!

They got that cam from Comp and its a 273.............not the best choice IMHO, and when you look at their full run its not really all that impressive. I feel things could have been done differently there but all-in-all it IS a representation of what CAN be done here.

You see me harping on CARBS and NITROUS but not because I want to be a broken record rather, as I have explained to others who have asked me, we have to have a starting point. We feel the carb needs to be done first and everything associated with a HEMI/CARB swap need to become common-place before extensive products are created for an EFI swap.

Next............

I also feel, for the same reason as the CARB, that NITROUS is the easiest, cheapest, and best way for someone to "get into the game".

The specific question was, "Hey...............what about a turbo"

Well, my answer is, "Hey, how about shaving $5000 - $6500 off the price and go with a carb and either a direct port or a fogger system"

To me, its almost more important to show how easy and affordable this is rather than show we can make 800hp...........

The after market will measure the amount of interest (market analysis) and then spend R&D dollars accordingly............so in our oppinion, the 800 hp stuff will come, however I feel its after 500hp Mopars are ruling the streets with their fairly mild 5.7 HEMI's

[MomsR/T]

BTW.................that mag artical showed 525 BHP while I am saying 525 rwhp w/ 12 - 14% loss to the roller which is like 590 - 595 BHP

Next.................I do not feel that motor they built was made to last while I am talking about a motor built to be driven for years to come.

I also feel the big stroker 5.7 will have torque numbers you suspect from a big block with alot less weight and about the same price as the big block, alot less money than any LA small block and also lighter. It is the future...........

[Tyler]

I agree with Moms R/T These new Hemi's are the future. I also wonder with the close family resemblance to the the P7 if that valvetrain parts would work on the third gen Hemi? I was thinking about a high compression solid roller tunnel rammed Hemi for my future powerplant choice. I love what technology has brought us

[MomsR/T]

I can answer that one...........

Its not the solid lifter thats the problem rather its an adjustable rocker............Jesel and TD have one but they want $2500 - $3000 for it and it requires machining of the head to fit......................but even if money is no object they prob STILL won't sell it to you because rumor has it that each of those companies have EXACTLY one.........

I feel they made those parts so they had SOMETHING to show at SEMA and PRI................but its only a guess because I can't say for sure what their intentions are / where.

Bottom line is they won't make it until we show there is a market...................it takes too much time, energy thus money to make a new part like this and they won't go out on a limb if the public won't go out on a limb with them.

THis valve train has show it will make 7000 rpm without float HOWEVER, you must  must must use a good spring and you MUST use a thinner oil that can keep up...................

We know how to Jerry-Rig the oil pump to make more pressure and I'm sure other parts will come out too but basicly, at this stage of the game 7000 is plenty for some SERIOUS power.

I'd love a brilliant mind such as Steve DeTar to HAPPEN to be in HOUSTON for a short spell and spend some time looking at our stuff with us and kick some ideas around and such..........................but stuff like that will come in time....................its exciting to be at the fore-front here leading the charge.

[MyCreation68]

hmm I'm starting to consider this swap something about a modern hemi really sparks my interest. Plus I found a place where I can buy a 5.7 or a 6.1 shortblock for 1,300 or 2,600 dependiing on which block I want. 

[MomsR/T]

Okay..............info on that comment

Can a 6.1 block be used in place of a 5.7 block and what are the pros / cons?

From an outter-dimensional perspective, they are absolutely the same.........so if a 5.7 fits a 6.1 fits; frt to rear and side to side the exact same!

The difference?

Bore.................they use the same stroke (3.59) but the 6.1 crank is forged while the 5.7 is cast.

6.1 bore is a 4.05
5.7 bore is a 3.92

The 6.1 has these oil squirters positioned so they spray the connecting rods...............but most just plug that crap..............those squirters have made more head-aches than they solved (long story)

The 6.1 oil pan is SLIGHTLY different, however its not needed.............a 5.7 pan can work on a 6.1 (and yes we've already done it) but make sure you use the 5.7 oil pump / pickup.

We like the 5.7 head on the 6.1 block better than we like the 6.1 head on a 5.7 block............to give you an idea of how big these heads are:

A ported 5.7 head (nothing too fancy) flows 330 - 335 cfm @ .600 w/ a good taper (not hogged)
A ported 6.1 head (nothing fancy) flows 365 - 370 @ .600 w/ good taper (not hogged)

5.7 valve size is 2.00 / 1.57
6.1 valve size is 2.08 / 1.58

The 6.1 head is HUUUUUUGE and the power curve on the dyno represents this well................yes I know its all relative because this motor's VE is something like .85 - .88 depending on combo but still.................this is ALOT of air and unless you stroke this thing up to pull that volume, then port velocity suffers.

When we get an adjustable valve train, then I think you'll see people slowly migrate to the big head and spin these babys up but until then and for street use, the 5.7 head is the ticket.

Therefore, if you can score a cheap 6.1 block, the consider using the 5.7 head............

If you were to buy all this stuff brand new from Mopar:

6.1 short block - $2600
5.7 heads - $500 - $750 (loaded)

If you were going to run stock heads, then replace the springs with the 6.1 springs and call it a day................the 6.1 springs have been proven to be better than the Comp 918 and the Manley replacements we've seen..............

With our sonic checking, the +.080 bore on the 5.7 is the ticket; however the 6.1 block we don't like even a hair over +.020

Be very careful of the crap on the market.............esp. the 426 kits Indy is putting out..........this requires a +.030 bore on your 6.1 and all the builders don't like it. Those serious into the 5.7 like the 4.00 bore and feel the 5.7 is actually stronger and this will become the more serious race motor for those of us with reasonable budgets.

The other kit out there that makes you roll your eyes is the 5.7 - 392 kit.............its a .017 over-bore......................they know how to market the early HEMI year cubic inches and all this crap is pure marketing. We use the crank and the rods they provide yet use the 4.00 bore to make a 407 which is what I am going to run on the street.

ANy questions?

[kowski71400]

where can you get a 6.1 shortblock for $2600? i have a set of heads coming, so now i just have to figure out what i'm going to do for a shortblock. can you really bore a 5.7 .080 without hardblock?

[MomsR/T]

where can you get a 6.1 shortblock for $2600? i have a set of heads coming, so now i just have to figure out what i'm going to do for a shortblock. can you really bore a 5.7 .080 without hardblock?

#1. Goto your Dodge dealership and talk to the parts guy and see what he is selling 6.1 short blocks for..........my cost is $2200 and I believe $2400 is the list price from most aggressive re-sellers while $2600 is common

#2. Yes you can..............you BEST bet is to find one in a salvage yard from a truck. If you