5.7 in 4-speed 64 dart

[USCG Charger]

Nice of you to join us Steve......

Stu had the same type switch idea... he wrote:
"
My plans are what I call 30's and 10's. 10's are ET which shouldn't be to hard to hit with a hemi baised stroker in at 3200 pound cuda with an 8 point cage, frame connectors, ss springs. The 30's will be MPG highway. The way I intend to hit that is I have some new big duration MDS friendly cam lobes that I'm developing for 370, 383, 392/5.7 strokers that still wan't to retain MDS. So I'll use a cam with these lobes and then hook the MDS up to a relay that is manually actuated. So on the highway at the flip of a switch the idea is that I can shut off the injecotrs, coils and lifter solenoids, thus enabling 4 cyl operation till I turn the switch back on. We'll see how that works but It sounds promising. "

[DavidBrenner]

My 5.7 hemi is here.
Looks like oil sensor got broke off during shipping. (lower front pass-side)

[USCG Charger]

purdy.... I hope ur not gonna leave her in there like that......... looks good bud, good luck w.ur build!

[DavidBrenner]

All I have for photoshop software is PC Paint.    I had to clear the A/C and heater hoses. The U-joint needles with get lots of use this way.

[Bakaruda]

You will love building it.

[DavidBrenner]

You will love building it.

Are you being sarcastic?

I would really like to run the car front cover and the accseseries down low, however TTI say it is possible, but I would have to cut the driverside mount off completely and build my own and "ding" there header to fit. Oh and cut an ear off the A/C compressor too. It would be nice but the truck setup seems less like a hack job although not a clean up top. Also running the truck front cover would require a different intake because it would interfear. I though the throttle body might "shoot" through the alt. and A/C, but it won't.

[Bakaruda]

No not at all. I loved building mine. There are things to overcome but not to bad.

[DavidBrenner]

Does anyone know the expected power output of the 5.7 in stock form, EXCEPT using the 6.1 cam and valve springs?

[CudaSRT8]

D Brenner,
The 5.7 is rated at 340hp and 390 ft.lbs. in the autos, except the Charger Daytona and the Chrysler 300C SRT Design Series (5.7, not 6.1) is rated at 350hp because of the Borla exhaust system.   The truck engine is rated at 345hp and 375 ft. lbs.

David, we need to talk!    I've researched the conversion options for the last three years as I've been performing my swap (6.1 into a '69 cuda fastback).  I have MANY of the answers you need, up to the point of what interested me for MY swap.   For example, I didn't want MDS on my car, so I have not researched that subject at all.   Send me a PM with your email and I'll shoot you some pics of my conversion. 

Through personal experience, I've learned a LOT about what you can use and what you can't.   What I know for a FACT, I'd be willing to share, and what I don't know for sure, I'll tell you so.   Watch out for the B.S. artists.  You'll end up wasting a lot of money...   
O.J.

[Q-ship]

Does anyone know the expected power output of the 5.7 in stock form, EXCEPT using the 6.1 cam and valve springs?

I can't say what the power output for the 6.1 cam is, but for the most part it's obsolete in the 5.7, as the 5.7 specific cams produce as much, or far more power, without giving up the bottom end like the 6.1 cam does. Keep in mind that the 6.1 uses heads with huge ports, and an intake designed for them, plus the increase displacement, so it's cam is designed to work with them, not the 5.7 stuff.

Here's a link to a cam test a few months ago, but keep in mind that as fast as the G3 development is going, that it may be ancient tech by now.  http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/mopar/smallblock/0602phr_hemi/index.html

From that test, the "260" cam sure looks like it would be the best choice for a street car, but I have no doubt that some of the newer cams are as good or better. It's just hard to gather all the information.

To cudaSRT8:

The 5.7 is rated at 340hp and 390 ft.lbs. in the autos, except the Charger Daytona and the Chrysler 300C SRT Design Series (5.7, not 6.1) is rated at 350hp because of the Borla exhaust system.   The truck engine is rated at 345hp and 375 ft. lbs.

David, we need to talk!    I've researched the conversion options for the last three years as I've been performing my swap (6.1 into a '69 cuda fastback).  I have MANY of the answers you need, up to the point of what interested me for MY swap.   For example, I didn't want MDS on my car, so I have not researched that subject at all.   Send me a PM with your email and I'll shoot you some pics of my conversion. 

Through personal experience, I've learned a LOT about what you can use and what you can't.   What I know for a FACT, I'd be willing to share, and what I don't know for sure, I'll tell you so.   Watch out for the B.S. artists.  You'll end up wasting a lot of money...   
O.J.

All the 5.7 engines are absolutely identical. The power ratings are due to the DIN rating method, which I covered in a previous post. The 5.7 will engine dyno at 365 to 375 HP (sometimes more depending on the dyno).

Since you have completed a successful swap, any information you have will be most welcomed by everyone, and I hope you will share it with all of us even though I know it takes a lot of typing to do so. Your offer to David of a phone conversation about the swap is a nice gesture, but please post up your info for all of us.

Lastly, your statement of watching out for the B.S. artists is unfair in my opinion. I don't see where anyone has posted B.S. as this is such a new segment of the hobby that, "absolute" info is nearly non-exsistant, and everyone is piecing it together as it becomes available. Also keep in mind that everyone has a different goal such as max power, max mileage, latest tech, bling, etc. Since you have a successful conversion under your belt, you are in a unique position of being able to point out the elements that you find to be B.S. so that the rest of us don't fall into a quagmire due to incorrect information. I'm certain that I can speak for everyone in saying that we would appreciate any and all info you can share.

[USCG Charger]

Well like I said B4... I should be able to start my engine in mid FEB 2008..... I dont think that comp makes a cam that is comparable to whats offered by at least 4 known and respected LX shops FRI, THS, PPP, and HHP... all those shops have provin to put out cams that make beter pwr and tq than what comp offers.... 2nd, you can put 6.1 heads and intake on a 5.7L but the CR jumps to around 11.4 or so... but I think PPP make a gasket and FRI and some other shops do some port work and you can get that CR down to the 10's for pump gas. The has been talk of putting 5.7 heasd on a 6.1 and that should make some real pwr.. I'm sure Lee or STeve can explain more in detail about that though... Point is the leading 3rd gen Hemi performance shops in the country are the ones that I listed above and can all be found on www.LXforums.com under the vendor section.

I'm gonna try and make this build simple as possible w/a carb set up and no MDS.... I already have a 06 R/T that is an everyday driver... I want this badboy to be a hot rod...nothin practical about it! You can view by progress under off topic items (68 dart resto).

Jason

[johu]

This brings us to the 545RFE truck trans (the 45RFE is the same trans, and can be “flashed” in order to allow the 5th. OD).
Much has been said about the supposed weakness of these transmissions, but consider that 5,500 to 7.000lb+ trucks, with modified engines (usually running Nitrous), under hot rod/race conditions, and/or towing heavy loads are the primary cause of failure, it is unfair to call the trans weak. Considering that with nearly no aftermarket support as of yet, and with only the addition of improved clutches and a shift kit is allowing them to withstand 600+ HP, low 12 second ¼ mile times, heavy towing, 4WD, etc. These are tough transmissions in stock form and hold up very well for the abuse they take. With simple mods, they are amazingly strong.

Couple comments on this partially based on answers I've got from Sharadon Performance (Denny) and Powertrain Control Solutions (Russ).

45RFE and 545RFE have weak 2nd-prime gear (1.50) used on downshifts (only from 4th and 5th with kickdown) that seems to fail even with fairly stock 5.7L on trucks. Another problem is shifting from 3rd to 4th at WOT. See latest Mopar Muscle for article about 545RFE, what are problems with it and what Sharadon does to make them last. Someone already scanned this and I think it was linked on lxforum.

PCS sells transmission controller called TCM-2000 and wiring loom for 45RFE/545RFE. This is same as new TCI transmission controller, but software is slightly different on TCI version. By dumping factory TCM and going with PCS unit it's possible to disable weak 2nd-prime and configure shift-points so it will skip 4th gear on WOT and go straight to 5th. Denny from Sharadon said 5th is probably strongest gear on 545RFE so this shouldn't be problem. You would need to send your 545RFE to Sharadon anyway. That's around $2000 + shipping.

Starter is on drivers side and there seems to be place for starter on passengers side as well. With AlterKtion version of TTI headers it should fit fine. I don't know if it interferes with stock K-frame version of TTI headers or not.

Since the NAG1 uses a non slip-joint driveshaft, it would require either a two-piece driveshaft, and it’s related center joint mounting hardware, or inventing a ball and trunion type driveshaft that could withstand the power output. The only other option would be to use the IRS LX rear end with adequate bracing of the frame/uni-body in order to use a single piece driveshaft. Not only that but the floor pan/ torsion bar cross member in the old cars will need extensive modifications. Basically the NAG is not an option.

NAG1 / W5A580 / 722.6 is also interesting transmission. It's not exactly new design as Mercedes has used it since 1996-97. They seem to be moving to 7-gear 722.9 but are still using 722.6 on high performance models. PCS has some support for this as well, but I'm not sure if it's ready for prime-time yet. I've sent question to PCS about this and will let you know after I get answer.

Starter is on passangers side on RWD version and drivers side on AWD version. With RWD bellhousing TTI headers just won't work as three primaries hit starter. I don't know if anyone has tried AWD version bellhousing with TTI headers yet. Same bellhousing is used on many Jeeps with NAG1 family transmissions. AWD bellhousing code is 52108422AA and list price $197.

Factory manuals show splined output shaft on AWD NAG1 between transfer case and transmission itself. Has anyone removed that 4 bolt output from stock RWD NAG1 to see if same shaft is there as well and if this would be any help for us?

It is my opinion that using carbs will be short lived because the junk yards have Millions of programmable GM computers for $30 bucks or so, and I’m certain that in the very near future, several people will be offering these w/customized harnesses, high flow injectors, and other ancillary parts, for dirt cheap. All it takes is to determine what resistors and transistors are needed in order for them to “read’ the stock sensors (maybe 2 bucks worth of parts), and package them all together.

Here. 5.7L hemi controlled with GM computer. http://mysite.verizon.net/ls6ron/

It's more than just slightly adapting signals from reluctor rings (called tonewheels in chrysler manuals) in crank and cam. 57hemicuda aka ls6ron made custom adapters and mounted GM LS1 rings to 5.7L hemi with GM sensors. While sensors could be easily adapted Chrysler and GM rings are totally different and so are signals sent to computer brains.

I don't think creating simple board that would read signals from stock hemi sensors and then output GM style signals would be that difficult. It's still more than few resistors anyway. On new hemi crank ring is 36 tooth with one removed and one (or was it two?) gaps filled. Cam has funky ring with unevenly spaced holes. Calculate engine rpm, number of signals per revolution and you get some estimate how fast processor is needed. I don't know if some PIC would be enough. Anyone know about electronics enough to comment on this? On programming side it would be required to interpret Chrysler style input and generate GM style output so you would need to understand both of them first of course.

Chrysler computer used on new hemis is called NGC (Next Generation Controller). It's also used for 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines. All use hall-effect style sensors. Embedded PowerPC processor, JTAG connector present if you want to hack it etc. Earlier Chrysler computers were JTEC (Jeep Truck Engine Controller), SBEC (Single Board Engine Controller) and GPEC. There's some info on Google, but not that detailed stuff we might hope.

Megasquirt is often mentioned as viable solution, but I know only one Megasquirted 5.7L. That's in Norway and uses custom ignition board to control 16 plugs and has external ring mounted on damper to provide timing information to Megasquirt. With Megasquirt you're also stuck with wasted spark and only two injector control channels eg. batch-fire. There's new box coming from Megasquirt folks called Sequencer. It can handle 8 cylinder COP (Coil-on-plug) setups like new Hemis.

Megasquirt-2 Extra (alternate processor code available, msextra.com) should work with stock 5.7L/6.1L crank trigger (ignores cam trigger), but it's untested. Code was written for SRT-4 Neons and does work for them, but there's only one report of testing it with 8 cylinder Chrysler engine and even that's in "I heard from someone" category.

If you're looking for cheap system Megasquirt is also quickly evolving to more expensive than it was couple years ago. New boards, processors, models etc. required by latest and greatest features, add wiring harness, relay boards, test boards to simulate your setup without engine actually running etc. it's way over $500 already.

Still my own plans are to use Megasquirt. My original intention was to go with Megasquirt-2 Extra and make it work with stock sensors and coils, but I put that in hold until Megasquirt Sequencer is out as it should make install a lot more easier. It will be more expensive that's for sure.

[Q-ship]

Excellent post johu, it's amazing how much there is to learn. Interesting info on the NAG1 AWD transmission differences. If a slip joint was able to be fabricated, this would be perfect for the old cars. I was able to look over a Charger unit out of the car, and I couldn't see any way to realisticaly use a slip joint. i'm going to have to try to find a trans shop that will let me see an AWD version.

As for the 545RFE 2nd prime problem, I am under the impression that the Trans go shift kit eliminates this. In any case, considering the massive weight of the trucks (which can be double what an old B body weighs), and considering how many are modifying their trucks for more power, racing most every weekend on street/test and tune nights, and running quicker than my mild 440 powered RR, I still believe that the 545 is stronger than it's being credited with. One thing I have found out for certain is that the people that are changing rear gears to very low ratios for taller tires and then try to race their trucks using OD as another “power” gear, are killing the trans, but OD should never be used as a power/acceleration gear regardless of the transmission make/model/type.

Thanks for the link on the GM computer in the E body. It certainly will take more than a handful of electronics to make it work! On the plus side, others are doing it, and perhaps the Ford, Toyota, or other computers can be made to work easier. I just don't have the experience with them as yet to say anything definitive since I've been messing with the big blocks for decades. Fortunately, the "New" generation of hot rodders seem to know these FI systems with ease, and for the most part, the operation is fairly much straight forward except for the "proprietary" Mopar programming.

Though I consider myself as a neophyte with electronics, I do have bit of experience in building TTL and MOS-FET amplifiers as well as overclocking boards, etc., so I believe that an electronic solution, rather than a mechanical solution would be the answer for sensor output and tonewheel clocking differentials. I won’t know for certain till I dig into mine, but the fact that Megasquirt, FAST, and others are working on, or have systems that don't require tonewheel changeout, would indicate that it can be worked around, which will allow the cheap JY computers to be used. Time will tell.

Your observation on the unevenly spaced cam tonewheel and the filled gap crank unit is highly enlightening, First of all, I have new G3 engine sitting in my garage and I have to constantly resist the nearly overpowering desire to take it apart to examine it. Secondly, this just may be the answer I have been trying to figure out about the operation of the MDS, so you have given me a reason to disassemble it. 

I have been obsessed with the MDS operation since I first heard about it and found out that it actually works flawlessly, unlike the past attempts by others. The flaw with GM's 4-6-8 was accelerated engine wear due to "cold" (sub operating temperature) cylinders, plus the fact that the rings would glaze due to lack of positive pressure/loading. Chryslers solution was to trap the exhaust charge in the cylinders in order to load the rings and keep temperatures up, but the mystery is how was this accomplished since simply shutting off the exhaust valve would overpressure the cylinders, as they would be trying to compress the entire ignited "charge" which would be similar to pre-ignition pressures.

The offset cam tonewheel "gaps" that you mentioned as well as the filled crank gaps are the obvious solution as to how they time the valve shutdown to trap a portion of the exhaust charge without overpressuring the cylinder. I've done countless hours of web research, emails/phone calls to Chryslers help line and technicians; talking to management,sales, and engineers at SEMA, aftermarket, etc., but I have continued to be perplexed as to how the mechanical portion of the MDS system was accomplished since software alone couldn't compensate for the variables in valve timing/cylinder pressure at differing RPM's and loads. I did learn that O2 sensor differentials, MAP vs. ambient pressure differentials, as well as the obvious throttle position; gear selection; intake vs. engine vs. oil temperatures, and other variables, all had a part in the operation of the MDS (which actually doesn’t just “shut off” the cylinders, but actually ”fires them periodically every few seconds to maintain heat and pressure). I'm guessing that these tonewheel offsets are the answer.

Why Chrysler wants to charge a ridiculous $2,200.00 for a programmable PCM that won't even operate MDS, is beyond me (not to mention anothr $900 for a harness). I would drive a Yugo before I paid them that. Why they won't help the 'legacy" enthusiasts with ease of installation/operation of the G3 into the old (high profile publicity for Chrysler) bodies, is beyond me? But just wait for the new crop of variable valve timing/MDS engines. If we think the current crop of engines/transmissions are hard to wire in, these should challenge even Bill Gates.

Thanks for all the info.

[Joe-Dokes]

This is the best thread EVER.

I've been researching the GEN III hemi swap for over two years.  Actually this is the best discussions I've seen regarding the use of GEN III Hemi's in classic mopar.

Moms RT is correct about the carb setup being the simplest setup.

There now seems to be at least two cast single plane manifolds that you can use.

Mopar has a single plane manifold, that sells for $525.00 here http://www.mopartsracing.com/parts/57hemi.html
XV Motorsports also sells their own single plane for $499.00 Here http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/XV-5-7-Mopar-HEMI-Intake-Manifold-Carbureated_W0QQitemZ330170409612QQcmdZViewItem

Here is the Ignition controller that Moms RT was talking about.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MSD-6013-6-HEMI-Ignition-Controller-Dodge-Chrysler-HEMI_W0QQitemZ140189099124QQihZ004QQcategoryZ33691QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118

As far as using GM electronics, I think his solution was very good three years ago when the options were more limited.  Today, I think there are better and cheaper and better alternatives. 

For example: FAST has a complete setup for about $3,000.00
http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FS&Product_Code=301000&Category_Code=XFI  (This is for the controller)
http://www.fuelairspark.com/Catalogs/CurrentCatalog/pdf/3.pdf This is the catalog page for the appropriate wiring harness, I was unable to find a price.

Fast also sells a controller that will work with the 545 RFE Transmission. 

Although I don't think this is the cheapest, this is perhaps the most turn key of the various setups I've seen. Considering that Mopar wants 8K for their 5.7 Hemi, with a nonprogrammable ECU, I think this in the long run, is a pretty decent deal.  Though I think Chrysler could offer the same setup and make a profit at about $7500.00

http://www.arringtonengines.com/products/performance-engines/dodge-srt8-hemi-engines/performance-61-hemi-srt-8-465-hp.html

As far as the megasquirt controller.  I think for the truly adventurous with far more time than money, it might be a good way to go.  The only problem is that you would be the first, and considering the complexity and flat out weirdness of the Chrysler sensors, I think you would need a degree in Electrical Engineering along with a lot practical knowledge of how modern fuel injection systems work.

The real coup will come when companies like HP Tuners finally reverse engineers the factory computer.  According to a forum thread on their website they are working on it.  Once you are able to buy a wiring harness and program the computer yourself with your laptop, these swaps are going to take off.

Regards

Joe Dokes

[DavidBrenner]

As many may know, this swap will require an electric fuel pump. I called Rock Valley (http://www.rockvalleyantiqueautoparts.com/products.htm) and they said they could could sell me a new fuel tank with an in tank pump for about $750.
Just passing some more info along.

[johu]

As far as using GM electronics, I think his solution was very good three years ago when the options were more limited.  Today, I think there are better and cheaper and better alternatives. 

For example: FAST has a complete setup for about $3,000.00

Better? I fully agree. Cheaper? $3000 FAST vs $30 for GM LS1 Controller? Swapping sensors from Chrysler to GM style is just that. Anyone know details how programmable stock GM computers are? If there's free or low cost tools to program them machining GM rings (or adapters) that bolt to new hemi might even be financially working concept for some small shop?

Fast also sells a controller that will work with the 545 RFE Transmission. 

Probably just PCS box with new stickers. Anyone seen these or have download link for Windows software used to config it so we could compare to PCS version?

Although I don't think this is the cheapest, this is perhaps the most turn key of the various setups I've seen. Considering that Mopar wants 8K for their 5.7 Hemi, with a nonprogrammable ECU, I think this in the long run, is a pretty decent deal.  Though I think Chrysler could offer the same setup and make a profit at about $7500.00

http://www.arringtonengines.com/products/performance-engines/dodge-srt8-hemi-engines/performance-61-hemi-srt-8-465-hp.html

I've been told Mopar kits are with controller from 4.7L V8. Quite hefty price markup considering new overstock 5.7L engines from Mopar are sold for $2000? Anyway problems start the moment you swap cam due non-programmable ECU.

If it's true that those are just 4.7L Chrysler V8 controllers they're probably NGC too. That means JTAG. JTAG means you can read/write flash with simple software and $5 DIY adapter on your PC. Buy 4.7L controller from junkyard, program crate engine software to it and put it to your junkyard sourced 5.7L. You might not even need 4.7L controller if same program runs on stock 5.7L NGC box.

As far as the megasquirt controller.  I think for the truly adventurous with far more time than money, it might be a good way to go.  The only problem is that you would be the first, and considering the complexity and flat out weirdness of the Chrysler sensors, I think you would need a degree in Electrical Engineering along with a lot practical knowledge of how modern fuel injection systems work.

After someone does Megasquirt setup, documents what was done and publishes maps that's easy to repeat for others. As long as it's not done you're completely right. It will take a lot of time to get engine even running and even more to get it tuned right.

Chrysler sensors itself aren't weird, they're hall-effect sensors and Megasquirt can use those. Problem is tonewheel / reluctor ring pattern. Another problem with Megasquirt is it's not really automotive grade product nor even powerful when you think processing power.

The real coup will come when companies like HP Tuners finally reverse engineers the factory computer.  According to a forum thread on their website they are working on it.  Once you are able to buy a wiring harness and program the computer yourself with your laptop, these swaps are going to take off.

Factory computer is nice piece of electronics with proper connectors, wiring harnesses etc. but software really needs to be fixed. I'm bit worried how HP Tuners etc. will price their product. $50 to junkyard for PCM/TCM and then $950 to tuner company to get new code? Each time you change cam you pay extra $300 for new maps? Well it will get pirated if it's overpriced, but that's not nice either.

Swap is possible today with bolt-on parts as we all know, but those are expensive. One part is $500, couple more $2000 etc. Soon your great junkyard scored SRT-8 engine that cost $2500 is going to be $8000 and it's still not running. As Q-Ship and MomsR/T have said to make these swaps really popular and feasible you need to be able get basic engine from any wreck, plug-in couple low-cost add-ons and get it running. New hemi has been out for quite some time by now but cheap solutions are still close to none. There are so many 5.7L and 6.1L engines sitting on garages for this very reason. Engine itself was cheap but rest of parts aren't. I have one LX Hemi in crate with 0 miles on my garage floor too!

BTW. I uploaded bunch of files I've collected to http://syrjakari.fi/junk/ and http://syrjakari.fi/W5A580/ I thought you guys might find interesting or useful. There's pics of both cam and crank tonewheels, GM LS1 crank wheel, detailed 4-cylinder NGC timing, NGC JTAG pinout, factory manuals, transmission stuff and so on. I've collected these from various websites and forums during last few months and saved hoping that they might be useful one day.

[johu]

Excellent post johu, it's amazing how much there is to learn. Interesting info on the NAG1 AWD transmission differences. If a slip joint was able to be fabricated, this would be perfect for the old cars. I was able to look over a Charger unit out of the car, and I couldn't see any way to realisticaly use a slip joint. i'm going to have to try to find a trans shop that will let me see an AWD version.

How about this? Yes, it's for Mustang but they'll do one for our specs if required. No idea about pricing for custom made driveshafts..
http://www.driveshaftshop.com/item169591.ctlg
http://www.driveshaftshop.com/item170348.ctlg

SRT-8 W5A580 has 4 bolt flange and 5.7L version 3 bolt? Some press release from Chrysler stated that, but anyone actually checked?

As for the 545RFE 2nd prime problem, I am under the impression that the Trans go shift kit eliminates this. In any case, considering the massive weight of the trucks (which can be double what an old B body weighs), and considering how many are modifying their trucks for more power, racing most every weekend on street/test and tune nights, and running quicker than my mild 440 powered RR, I still believe that the 545 is stronger than it's being credited with. One thing I have found out for certain is that the people that are changing rear gears to very low ratios for taller tires and then try to race their trucks using OD as another “power” gear, are killing the trans, but OD should never be used as a power/acceleration gear regardless of the transmission make/model/type.

If we're talking about that $50 Transgo "shiftkit" for (5)45RFE then no, it doesn't do anything for computer and computer is the one deciding when to use 2nd prime.

Those are exactly my thoughts with 545RFE. However when you're doing a lot more than stock ~350hp 5.7L does I'm getting bit worried how long it'll live even with 2nd-prime and 4th are disabled unless there's some other work done. W5A580 would be really nice if we could solve those other problems regarding using it. It should be able to take quite some punishment in stock form.

Thanks for the link on the GM computer in the E body. It certainly will take more than a handful of electronics to make it work!

I believe that an electronic solution, rather than a mechanical solution would be the answer for sensor output and tonewheel clocking differentials.

GM LS1 crankwheel: http://www.syrjakari.fi/junk/chevy%20ls1%20trigger.jpg
4-cyl NGC crankwheel (should be same on hemi): http://www.syrjakari.fi/junk/2003wheel.JPG
Hemi camshaft tonewheel (modified, 3 degree advance): http://www.syrjakari.fi/junk/3%20degree%20camshaft%20timing%20wheel%20photo.jpg

I too think rather than swap rings and sensors doing it with some probably fairly simple electronics would be better idea.

The offset cam tonewheel "gaps" that you mentioned as well as the filled crank gaps are the obvious solution as to how they time the valve shutdown to trap a portion of the exhaust charge without overpressuring the cylinder.

I've done countless hours of web research, emails/phone calls to Chryslers help line and technicians; talking to management,sales, and engineers at SEMA, aftermarket, etc., but I have continued to be perplexed as to how the mechanical portion of the MDS system was accomplished since software alone couldn't compensate for the variables in valve timing/cylinder pressure at differing RPM's and loads. I did learn that O2 sensor differentials, MAP vs. ambient pressure differentials, as well as the obvious throttle position; gear selection; intake vs. engine vs. oil temperatures, and other variables, all had a part in the operation of the MDS (which actually doesn’t just “shut off” the cylinders, but actually ”fires them periodically every few seconds to maintain heat and pressure). I'm guessing that these tonewheel offsets are the answer.

They need precise timing from engine to computer for injection and ignition too. Aren't similar tonewheels present on all modern engines? You've seen those cutaway hemi pictures showing mechanical side of MDS I belive so it's only software that's bugging you?

Didn't know MDS was doing that, but makes sense especially considering mistakes others such as GM made with their design. Thanks for that information, now I know bit more about MDS and that it's not that simple as it might sound at first.

[fstfish66]

 just seen an add in mopar muscle,,,MSD  has a programable computer for the 5.7 ,, and i did talk with a guy that has a 5.7 from a ram in a cuda,,,using LS1 parts,,,he says it makes more HP then using the mopar factory computer,,,he is in new jersey some place,,,,orange 70 cuda,,,

[johu]

Just got reply from PCS. Controller supports W5A580 / 722.6 / NAG1, they've done install on 6 cylinder diesel and have required harnesses for sale. Since there's several different shifters no shifter electrical connectors included, but that's just few wires and pin-out is known. Also shift points on base calibrations are for diesel, but since we know shift points for LX platform just use those as base and edit as necessary. Driveshaft part still needs to be resolved somehow.

[Bakaruda]

http://www.hcrods.com/index.html

I sent them a request for more info. This is just another site for converion people. I also sent Lee a email asking what he thought about them. I have not heard anything yet. I like the look of the injectors. I want to know more.

[DavidBrenner]

Does anyone know what size injectors come stock on the 2008 5.7L Hemi's?  Also what power level can be supported with them?

[johu]

Does anyone know what size injectors come stock on the 2008 5.7L Hemi's?

For earlier years S-A Design book says 29 lbs/hr for 5.7L and 33.75 lbs/hr for 6.1L.

http://www.amazon.com/High-Performance-New-Hemi-Builders-Guide/dp/1932494391

[CudaSRT8]

Cary,
Henry County Rods ( now called Modern Muscle ) is top notch.   Dave Weber knows his stuff.  Arrington Engines also know their stuff.  From what I remember, I think Dave use to work for Arrington.  Until and unless Hemi Shop, Frank Racing and some of the other small guys who have popped up on the Gen3 Hemi scene disclose their background and experience, I'm tending to lean toward the East Coast guys with my precious parts.

Lee, what can you tell us of your background, past and present? 

[gremlinsteve]

Does anyone know the expected power output of the 5.7 in stock form, EXCEPT using the 6.1 cam and valve springs?

yes. has been tested alot. problem i see is tht the srt8 cam comes on too late. its funa nd it works but the power wont come on till about the 3600-4000 range.

the power of the stock as can be lx cars...magnums,chargers and the 300c's...is about 280-290. add about 25 rwhp for the srt8 stuff.

i have a cam ill almost give away if some one wants it.

one of the cams we have makes 45 rwhp over most pre dyno numbers and is similar in duration to a srt8 cam. works best with the srt8 springs also.

steve
 

[gremlinsteve]

also. is the ls1 computer firing both plugs? i dont think so.

the only controllers i know that fire both plugs will be the msd system and the xv offering.

also. i have a mopar intak and a xv intake. if i was to run one over the other, it would be the xv part. the designe seems better and the varince in port flow is not nearly as bad.

the comp cams 260? has some small issues with a stock mopar computer. with the carb system, it would be in my opinion..too mild.
not worth the upgrade.

5.7 heads in my opinion are the way to go up to a displacement of around 430 inches. port velocities are greater with the 5.7 piece and actually outflow the 6.1 ported heads untill the .530 lift area. then the 6.1 pulls away. these numbers come from our bench of course. numbers vary ect from bench to bench...we all know that.

a 5.7 headed 6.1 powered car has been built and is running well. in fact, the 5.7 head out powered the 6.1 head combo by .40 tenths at the track. same cam.

if i had a 6.1 car with the 6.1 heads? i would prolly stick with the 6.1 heads. they are hard to get. or one could sell them as cores and prolly fund a hopped up 5.7 head combo.

my newest motor will be int he 230 duration @.050 area with 575 lift. this is in a carb'd 392 inch motor.

the gremlin will be running a 440 incher. when done it should be somewaht fast.

even a stock 5.7 head will flow 280-290 cfm and the durve remains flat. does not stall even when pulled into the .750 lift range.
the 6.1 head hits the 330 area and again, does not ppear to stall at high lift.

in the end, the cam choice will be dictated on which computer you will run.

if it was me? xv intake package, xv controller with a cam around 224/230 .550-.570 lift. it will flat out run hard.

remember, at .580 lift you will hit the seal with the retainer. so that would need addressing at some point with higher lifts.

steve