5.7 in 4-speed 64 dart

[jeffneal66]

Awesome post!  I am enjoying every bit of it, thanks for getting involved FRI!!!

I am currently buying parts for a '68 Barracuda Fastback rebuild.  It will have a 2003 5.7 HEMI (non-MDS truck motor) in it with a TKO 5 speed.  My original plan was to stick with the stock fuel injection, change the cam, valve springs, and perhaps the push rods just to make them stiffer.

I will be changing over to the LX intake manifold because I like the looks of it a lot better.  At this point it looks like I will be going with the new MSD controller unless I hear of something horrible about it.

My basic question is about the cylinder head porting.  What is the difference between using a ported cylinder head and a non-ported cylinder head with a cam swap?  I would prefer putting my money into suspension and brake parts at this point.  Will it affect the cam choice very much?  I am hoping to get over 400 HP and Torque at the rear wheels.

[MomsR/T]

I am currently buying parts for a '68 Barracuda Fastback rebuild.  It will have a 2003 5.7 HEMI (non-MDS truck motor) in it with a TKO 5 speed.  My original plan was to stick with the stock fuel injection, change the cam, valve springs, and perhaps the push rods just to make them stiffer.

I will be changing over to the LX intake manifold because I like the looks of it a lot better.  At this point it looks like I will be going with the new MSD controller unless I hear of something horrible about it.

My basic question is about the cylinder head porting.  What is the difference between using a ported cylinder head and a non-ported cylinder head with a cam swap?  I would prefer putting my money into suspension and brake parts at this point.  Will it affect the cam choice very much?  I am hoping to get over 400 HP and Torque at the rear wheels.

#1. The LX manifold will not work in your car because you'll have to use the truck front cover to fit in your A-Body which means the ALT will interfere with the throttle body............you can get the 6.1 intake manifold but then have a GOOD porter marry the 6.1 port shape into your 5.7 head shape......................takes a little work.

#2. The difference between ported and non-port from a flow stand point is: unported = 280-ish @ .600 lift and ported = 333-ish @ .600...........the value is more relative to cam selection

#3. Yes.................cam choice is very relative to head flow

#4. 400 rwhp is so damn easy hear that if thats all you want then just cnage the cam, springs, and do a good valve job and be done with it (this is assuming long tubes, no cats, and proper tune)

[DavidBrenner]

#4. 400 rwhp is so damn easy hear that if thats all you want then just cnage the cam, springs, and do a good valve job and be done with it (this is assuming long tubes, no cats, and proper tune)

I am assuming that a NEW motor wouldn't need the valve job. Or are you doing something trick here?

[MomsR/T]

trick.............

Expect 8 cfm increase from valve job alone and maybe another 10+ rwhp from a 0.030 mill job which brings the 5.7L up to about 10.3:1 compression...............good stuff if you are going to disassemble the heads to upgrade springs to the 6.1's

[DavidBrenner]

I had planned to leave the head on and pressurize the cylinder to hold valves inplace to change out the springs. I am only looking for about 410-435 flywheel HP. A cam and springs only should get me there, yes?

[USCG Charger]

I think w/a cam only u might gain 40hp w/a sidewinder right Lee? then w/no cats and headers u should be a little over 410 or so.

JAson

[kowski71400]

moms rt. why will the car front cover not work? i was planning on using the car front cover when i do the swap because i have a twin pass rad.( both inlet and outlet are on the pass. side )  i'm a little worried about my heads now as well. i got a set of used GS Motorsport ported 6.1 heads and intake. now i'm not sure if their going to be a good choice.

[CudaSRT8]

I'm absolutely in LOVE with the Gen3 Hemi, so this thread certainly interests me.   Did the original poster ever get his question(s) answered? 

After 3 years of researching what works and what doesn't for "fitting" this engine in an old Mopar, I'm finally done with the install mockup of my 6.1 into my '69 Cuda.  I've learned a LOT and what concerns me is there is sooooo much information being posted here sooooo quickly.  I've seen a lot (in what, 6 pages now?) that is just not correct.   

Q-SHIP, while I'd love to correct all that I know to be inaccurate, I didn't have the time to keep up with the postings and I don't have the time now  to go back and do that.  I've had to pretty much just let the inaccuracies go by.  I just hope some of them don't cost any of these people mis-spent money and time.  Because of my project's body style (69 cuda), I did take particular interest in Dave Brenner's car (67 cuda, and a SWEET one at that) and offered to chat with him about his project.  If YOU have any specific questions, feel free to PM me and I'll tell you what I KNOW about the subject, or I'll tell you I don't know.  By the way, S&P did a conversion of a 68 or 69 GTX (clone) to 6.1 Hemi with a Keisler Tremec.   The car still has stock suspension.   There's a lot of pictures of the conversion process on their site and I also have pictures I took of the engine compartment details when it was at SEMA.  They did a pretty nice job.  By the way, the 5.7 engines are not all the same.  While the 5.7 short blocks and heads may all be the same, everything else changes by application to truck, Jeep or LX and that makes a big difference when buying an engine for a swap.  Some versions are better than others, depending on whether it's going in an A, B or E body and how much money you have to spend.  While I have not personally dyno'd each engine, I can't help but think the difference in intake and exhaust manifolds makes a little difference in hp and torque. 
 
MOMS/RT,  while it's evident you've spent some time with these Gen3s, I still don't know enough about your qualifications to trust sending my heads and intake down to you (and I AM in the market for that).  To just refer us to the LX forums is certainly not enough for ME, and for that matter, I did read some "smack" about Frank Racing on one forum (can't please everyone, right?).   Certainly you can help some of these guys with what you've learned about the cams and heads, but you are putting out some inaccuracies and contradictions from time to time with regard to conversions into old Mopars.   I noticed most recently you said you can't use an LX intake with the truck front cover, but then you turned around and said you could use a 6.1 intake.   BOTH manifolds will confict with the accessories on top of the truck front cover. 

To those with A-BODIES:  While I stuffed a 6.1 into my A body (5.7 LX engine would be the same challenge), I definately don't recommend it to a novice or someone trying to do the swap on a "budget".   If you prefer the LX intake (whether 5.7 OR 6.1), I recommend getting in touch with the Hemi Shop or Street & Performance and use their brackets to move the alt. and AC comp. out of the way of the LX intake throttle body.  I like the Hemi Shop brackets better, as they could be finished off to look more "factory" while the S&P stuff looks more "street roddish".   

[jeffneal66]

Thanks for the information, I am not very concerned about bracket interference because I will either fab my own, or find some good aftermarket system, and it sounds like they are already available, March shouldn't be far behind either.

I have a set of PAC Racing valve springs which are for an LS1, and was told they will work with the G3 HEMI's.  But, I see that the specs are different between the 2 engines.  I also have a set of Ti spring retainers which are for a G3 HEMI.  Will the LS1 springs work, or am I better off getting G3 HEMI specific stuff?  It sounds like the stock 6.1 springs are as good, or better than some aftermarket springs.  If I stay with aftermarket springs I was planning on staying with the PAC Racing Springs.

Also, I was planning on changing the valve springs without pulling the cylinder heads, so a valve job was not in the plan.  If that is something that needs to be done on an engine with 23,000 miles on it then I will go ahead and have the heads ported while they are off.

Thanks for the information!

[MomsR/T]

I'm absolutely in LOVE with the Gen3 Hemi, so this thread certainly interests me.   Did the original poster ever get his question(s) answered? 

After 3 years of researching what works and what doesn't for "fitting" this engine in an old Mopar, I'm finally done with the install mockup of my 6.1 into my '69 Cuda.  I've learned a LOT and what concerns me is there is sooooo much information being posted here sooooo quickly.  I've seen a lot (in what, 6 pages now?) that is just not correct.   

Q-SHIP, while I'd love to correct all that I know to be inaccurate, I didn't have the time to keep up with the postings and I don't have the time now  to go back and do that.  I've had to pretty much just let the inaccuracies go by.  I just hope some of them don't cost any of these people mis-spent money and time.  Because of my project's body style (69 cuda), I did take particular interest in Dave Brenner's car (67 cuda, and a SWEET one at that) and offered to chat with him about his project.  If YOU have any specific questions, feel free to PM me and I'll tell you what I KNOW about the subject, or I'll tell you I don't know.  By the way, S&P did a conversion of a 68 or 69 GTX (clone) to 6.1 Hemi with a Keisler Tremec.   The car still has stock suspension.   There's a lot of pictures of the conversion process on their site and I also have pictures I took of the engine compartment details when it was at SEMA.  They did a pretty nice job.  By the way, the 5.7 engines are not all the same.  While the 5.7 short blocks and heads may all be the same, everything else changes by application to truck, Jeep or LX and that makes a big difference when buying an engine for a swap.  Some versions are better than others, depending on whether it's going in an A, B or E body and how much money you have to spend.  While I have not personally dyno'd each engine, I can't help but think the difference in intake and exhaust manifolds makes a little difference in hp and torque. 
 
MOMS/RT,  while it's evident you've spent some time with these Gen3s, I still don't know enough about your qualifications to trust sending my heads and intake down to you (and I AM in the market for that).  To just refer us to the LX forums is certainly not enough for ME, and for that matter, I did read some "smack" about Frank Racing on one forum (can't please everyone, right?).   Certainly you can help some of these guys with what you've learned about the cams and heads, but you are putting out some inaccuracies and contradictions from time to time with regard to conversions into old Mopars.   I noticed most recently you said you can't use an LX intake with the truck front cover, but then you turned around and said you could use a 6.1 intake.   BOTH manifolds will confict with the accessories on top of the truck front cover. 

To those with A-BODIES:  While I stuffed a 6.1 into my A body (5.7 LX engine would be the same challenge), I definately don't recommend it to a novice or someone trying to do the swap on a "budget".   If you prefer the LX intake (whether 5.7 OR 6.1), I recommend getting in touch with the Hemi Shop or Street & Performance and use their brackets to move the alt. and AC comp. out of the way of the LX intake throttle body.  I like the Hemi Shop brackets better, as they could be finished off to look more "factory" while the S&P stuff looks more "street roddish".   

 

The only SMACK you read about us came from The HEMI Shop who retitled their name so it would seem covert...........they did it on the truck FORUM so it would go un-noticed yet it was noticed. We've sold more ported cyl heads than most anyone I know and yes we seem to disagree on quite alot because of reading between the lines or the full message not being understodd.

For example - There ISN'T any difference in the motors as you claim sir.....................the difference is in the pan, front cover, or EGR drilling in the LX passenger side head.................but if all you have is the bare block, there isn't any difference until you goto the crank and look at the reluctor wheel and measure thickness or metal type.

Secondly, if you don't know who I am and you do not respect our shop then by all means do not buy from us but when there are tons of people who know us and have been there since the motor has actually gone fast but refuse to accept it then there is nothing I can do.

You've owned two of these motors and have called around compiling info.............................mean while Steve and I have owned enough of these to sink a ship, we own more cores than you've ever seen compiled...................please don't make this a "whose pecker is bigger" because there isn't any reason this great thread should go south.

Call Stu at the HEMI SHOP and ask him if we're just a couple of hacks; call Deny or Jerry at SharaDon and ask them who we are and how the cam we built for them worked out; or ask the 5 or 6 FORUMs who know us well.....................

If I can help, then let me help...............

[MomsR/T]

And no......................the 5.7 plastic intake will not clear the truck front cover and YES.............the 6.1 intake will 100% clear the truck front cover and there are no less than 15 trucks out there with that EXACT combo....................(the 6.1 intake sits about 2 inches higher)

Once again..................I know of what I am speaking.

The negative is that you need to do some serious hand-work to match up the 6.1 port down to the 5.7 port.................a hack could just rapidly step the port but it would kill flow...................blending it in is the best way.

[MomsR/T]

moms rt. why will the car front cover not work? i was planning on using the car front cover when i do the swap because i have a twin pass rad.( both inlet and outlet are on the pass. side )  i'm a little worried about my heads now as well. i got a set of used GS Motorsport ported 6.1 heads and intake. now i'm not sure if their going to be a good choice.

The car (LX) front accessory cover puts your accessories way out and down and will not clear an A-Body

The truck front acc. cover puts everything up and in...........this gives you clearence on the sides................

The GS stuff is 3rd party done and we've seen some okay stuff and some really bad stuff come from them. One customer had us rework their GS stuff because the company that did their port work wroked too aggressively on the roof and broke thru......................problem is they broke thru to where the spring seat goes and simply re-welded the seats in.......but now the shims sat on an un-even surface and was a complete disaster...................yet they sold these heads to this man at full price and said there was nothing wrong with them. 

I also do not like the 6.1 heads on a 5.7 motor................I feel the heads are WAY too big and kill port velocity. Ported 5.7 heads out flow stock 6.1 heads all untill you go past the .600 lift zone. The HEMI Shop disagrees and Stu and I have debated this for over a year.................

I also warn that you need to be careful with head gasket thickness putting a 6.1 head on a 5.7

But I am assuming you mean a 6.1 head on a 5.7 motor but you did not express your intentions.

[MomsR/T]

Thanks for the information, I am not very concerned about bracket interference because I will either fab my own, or find some good aftermarket system, and it sounds like they are already available, March shouldn't be far behind either.

I have a set of PAC Racing valve springs which are for an LS1, and was told they will work with the G3 HEMI's.  But, I see that the specs are different between the 2 engines.  I also have a set of Ti spring retainers which are for a G3 HEMI.  Will the LS1 springs work, or am I better off getting G3 HEMI specific stuff?  It sounds like the stock 6.1 springs are as good, or better than some aftermarket springs.  If I stay with aftermarket springs I was planning on staying with the PAC Racing Springs.

Also, I was planning on changing the valve springs without pulling the cylinder heads, so a valve job was not in the plan.  If that is something that needs to be done on an engine with 23,000 miles on it then I will go ahead and have the heads ported while they are off.

Thanks for the information!

The PAC's wil work if they are those 918's type yet the 6.1 springs are better IMHO. We stay away from the Comp 918 because of possible quality issues. PAC has a 918-ish spring we like that is hardened...........I think thats the one you mean.....................just make sure you do your installed heights.

Changing the valve spring with the heads on the car is a TRUE pain in the arse! You need special tools and no, its not like a typical 350 or 302 in this regard. The angles are strange and the tools need to be specific.......................R&Ring the head is actually easier unless you buy the MOPAR specific tool...................mark my words.

And just because you pull the head doesn't MEAN you have to port it...................you could simply:

Mill 0.030
Valve job
Port match
Up grade the seals

This head should peak at 290 - 295cfm on the bench and provide good performance at penny-pinching costs IMHO

[USCG Charger]

The only SMACK you read about us came from The HEMI Shop who retitled their name so it would seem covert...........they did it on the truck FORUM so it would go un-noticed yet it was noticed. We've sold more ported cyl heads than most anyone I know and yes we seem to disagree on quite alot because of reading between the lines or the full message not being understodd.


Secondly, if you don't know who I am and you do not respect our shop then by all means do not buy from us but when there are tons of people who know us and have been there since the motor has actually gone fast but refuse to accept it then there is nothing I can do.

You've owned two of these motors and have called around compiling info.............................mean while Steve and I have owned enough of these to sink a ship, we own more cores than you've ever seen compiled...................please don't make this a "whose pecker is bigger" because there isn't any reason this great thread should go south.

Call Stu at the HEMI SHOP and ask him if we're just a couple of hacks; call Deny or Jerry at SharaDon and ask them who we are and how the cam we built for them worked out; or ask the 5 or 6 FORUMs who know us well.....................

If I can help, then let me help...............

I Seriously doubt Stu would talk about you guys on any forum....... Now Scott however has a history of it so I can't speak for him. Lee is right about there intentions on tryin to provide the best 3rd gen proformance parts. The only reason I had The Hemi Shop build my motor vs Franks Racing is b/c at the time I didn't feel they were on track to be engine builders (didn't have the time). Now with them sourcing their work out they should be able to stay above water. Stu @ The Hemi Shop has over 30 motors on the street while Franks has 2....

I dont have the knowledge to know if something is wrong w/the build so I went with the safe choice at the time. Would I buy from FRI on any other bolt ons? hell yeh in a heart beat. I dont think that one shop can be the best at everything and IMHO I feel FRI is best suited for their high quaility heads and great custom cams.... I'm patiently waiting on their headers to be on the market.

Jason

[MomsR/T]

You're right.................it WAS NOT Stu......................actually it was pictures Stu took of our ECONO head and sent them to PlatniumHemi who posted those pictures compared to The HEMI SHOP's fully ported head which started the havoc. Scott then fanned the flames..........those heads were suppose to go on a customer's car who specificly bought these heads with minimum work. The HEMI Shop had NO authorized permission to disassemble his heads and study our work and the customer, still today (as are we) pissed about it.

It was a total misrepresentation of the truth and wasn't fair............

Since then however, that same shop sent us an intake to fix that another guy butchered, and we sold them 3 or 4 cams that they resold to truck users who love them.

Our first employee starts next week and we're excited to release our website and open our new shop-doors.

I also contact Mopar Action and Muscle Mopar mags to see if they would do a LA Motor vs 5.7 Motor Budget Shootout to show how much power you can make cheaply.............both carbed, both long tubes, etc............apples to apples. I hope they take us up on the offer.

From our days of doing bracket racing, to Pro Fuel Harley racing, to now working exclusivley on the 3rd Gen HEMI - we've come a long way in 20 years.

[CudaSRT8]

Dart in a Donut, did you ever get your questions answered?   Hope you don't mind the direction this thread has turned. 

Hey all, say the word and I'll butt out of this thread and let the mis-information continue...

MomsRT, I think you may have some good information to share with these guys with regard to what you've personally learned and experienced about the insides of these Gen3s.  I don't know enough about port volumes, velocity and cam specs to comment on what you say here.  I do wonder about how much of THAT information may be hype or inaccurate based on some of the "conversion" (into an old Mopar) information you've offered that I know to be untrue.

By the way, the smack I read about F.R.I. was on a SRT Jeep sight, not truck site.  Haven't seen anything on my favorite truck site.  Not a big deal anyway, in my opinion.  

I do think some of our disagreements may be due to not reading each others messages thoroughly.  You evidently didn't clearly read what I said to Qship about what's the same and what's different about the car/truck engines.   Read it again and you'll see there really is no disagreement there.  We both agree the heads and short block are the same.   It's all the periphreal (sp?) items that are different and make a big difference when looking to buy an engine for a swap.

As for the pecker contest, you're the one bringing up that subject and YOU WIN with your warehouse full of cores.  However, I didn't need a whole lot of cores to research my project.  I haven't called around to compile information as you suggest.  I've had my running hemi truck, a MP 5.7 FI crate engine on a stand, a 6.1 engine on a stand, some hemi Chargers and my lil' A-body Cuda available for the research.  Unless I state otherwise when offering input here, my input is based on personal inspection of converted cars (I took a lot of pictures at SEMA) and OEM parts.   I've been blessed with having a dealer at my disposal who has taken a personal interest in my project.  He gives me great pricing and he'll take back any part that I decide to return (unused and undamaged of course).  I've bought many factory parts from him, not knowing for sure if they would work.  If they did, great; if they didn't, he has graciously taken them back with no hassle.   I've been able to return a lot of parts that didn't work out, and that's been VERY helpful with this project.

I don't think anyone here ever said or incinuated (sp?) that you guys are a bunch of hacks.  However, from my perspective, you do seem to be trying to build your business and reputation as the undisputed Gen3 Hemi guru and I'm sorry, but you're not there yet.   

You state the truck front cover does not interfere with a 6.1 intake and that there are at least 15 trucks running that combination.   Obviously, you did not convert any of those trucks.  I looked into this for the possibility of my own truck over two years ago, but because of your 100% FACT attitude, I double checked this tonight (I hate it when I "second guess" myself).  The upper, center mounting area for the alt. and AC pump must be cut out and removed.  Bracketry then has to be created and added to be able to move the alt. and AC pump outward.  As I stated, the Hemi Shop and S&P have bracketry available.    I suspect that the 15 trucks you speak of were either converted by the Hemi Shop or the truck owners bought his brackets.   Look on his website.  He had pictures posted at one time. 

Lee, I went out to the garage tonight and re-checked for this interference.  I literally tried to set the 6.1 manifold on my 5.7 w/truck cover.  IT WON'T FIT!  You stated on a post "If I can help, let me help".   Hey, by all means, continue to share what you KNOW by actual EXPERIENCE.  We all certainly welcome that here.   But geez, don't mislead these guys by making such "matter of fact" statements that just are not true and could cost them some wasted bucks.  Not all parts suppliers are as cooperative as those I've been blessed with...



   

[USCG Charger]

I dont want to get in the middle of this but wanted to post this truck that has a 6.1 intake on it.... The Hemi Shop did this. http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=93328  look at post # 3.......

Jason

[CudaSRT8]

Thanks for that post Jason.  It does show the completed conversion, but unfortunately it doesn't show the bracketry (very well) that it took to do so.  Stu had some great shots of the bracketry on his website a couple of years ago.   I just went to his site and looked for them, but he has updated it with pictures of the completed conversion.  Again, it's hard to see the bracketry in those shots, but if you look closely, you'll see some of it.  He charges $375 for a conversion kit.  I believe this includes him modifying the front cover and then of course, the new bracketry.

So CORRECTLY stated, the LX plastic intake and the SRT8 intake can be "made to fit" with the truck front cover.   To say "the 6.1 intake will 100% clear the truck front cover" is a dis-service to any of you guys considering this combination.  You'd be in for a big surprise if you tried to just bolt it on... 

[USCG Charger]

Noted.... I just wanted to show u guys that picture. I could really careless if it fits or if it take crazy fab work to make it fit..... I'm not using one on my Dart, but would like to put some 6.1 heads and intake on my 06 charger.

Jason

[Bakaruda]

Flyboy and me just hung out for a while at my house he gave me a killer ideal. I think I will use the truck intake and make my own pan for the air cleaner.

[CudaSRT8]

Cary, do you have a fiberglass, six pack hood?   With using the truck intake, there is a really nice flat pan style intake available for my Ram Daytona (which has the SRT10 scooped hood).   You take that big Hemi Hat (as the truck guys call it) off and it bolts or clamps right onto the throttle body.  I THINK this intake would fit nicely into a six pack scoop for direct air.   Would be pretty cool if it would work.  If that interests you, I'm sure I could find it and provide you with a web address.  I have the AAR six pack hood, but because of the 6.1 throttle body position, this wouldn't work for me.  My scoop just opens up into the engine compartment.  Just extra fresh air into the eng. compt. I guess...

[USCG Charger]

I bought a AAR quality fiberglass 6 pack hood.... but I'm of course running that carb set up.

JAson

[Bakaruda]

I do not have a hood yet. I am thinking of going with the Glastek 4.5 in 6 pack scoop.

[DavidBrenner]

Just out of couriosity, what do some of these hoods cost? Also are you getting them out of nessesity (clearance) or wants?

[USCG Charger]

I'm getting mine for wants and air flow.... I'm not sure about the carb I'm gonna run plus the air filter.

AARqualityfiberglass.com has them for my 68 Dart for about 500 plus 85 for shipping to tx.

JAson

[DavidBrenner]

Check it out
http://www.racingjunk.com/post/1056297/1992-hemi-duster-LOOK-.html

[CudaSRT8]

Cary,
Go to   bigboys-customtoys.com    and look at the ram air intake for the Ram Daytona.  It won't work with my 6.1 intake w/6pack hood but I think it just might sit up inside a six pack scoop with the truck intake that it's made for.   Going with the 4.5 scoop huh?  You be bad ass   

David,
I have the AAR brand 6pack hood because it's always been my favorite and since it was a '69 vintage design, seems appropriate on my '69 cuda.  It'll let cooler air under the hood, but so far I haven't come up with an acceptable way (to me) to make it functional with my throttle body position.   

[Bakaruda]

first I am getting the hood for both reasons. The biggest is for the look I want. As fo