5.7 in 4-speed 64 dart

[CudaSRT8]

Moms RT, (what's your first name?)
If you have TTI's header for use with a stock K, they won't work with Bill's K.   I used a stock K when I first started building my 6.1  cuda but didn't like the fit of TTI's mounts or their headers.  Switched to Bill's AlterK and the 6.1 sits REAL NICE in the engine bay now.   Then went with TTI's headers that Bill re-configured to go with his AlterK.   The headers now fit REAL NICE also.   

I DID want stainless, but TTI wouldn't build them that way (didn't say why).   I'd be open to working with you on your design.   If they come out real nice when you're done, I'd probably want to buy a set.   You should probably offer them with both 5.7 OR 6.1 flanges.   Let me know if you're interested.  By the way, the TTI / RMS design slips up into (or out) of place from the bottom REAL EASY...


   

[Bakaruda]

They hold way to much heat. You would need to rap them. Go with Jet Hot.

[MomsR/T]

Moms RT, (what's your first name?)
If you have TTI's header for use with a stock K, they won't work with Bill's K.   I used a stock K when I first started building my 6.1  cuda but didn't like the fit of TTI's mounts or their headers.  Switched to Bill's AlterK and the 6.1 sits REAL NICE in the engine bay now.   Then went with TTI's headers that Bill re-configured to go with his AlterK.   The headers now fit REAL NICE also.   

I DID want stainless, but TTI wouldn't build them that way (didn't say why).   I'd be open to working with you on your design.   If they come out real nice when you're done, I'd probably want to buy a set.   You should probably offer them with both 5.7 OR 6.1 flanges.   Let me know if you're interested.  By the way, the TTI / RMS design slips up into (or out) of place from the bottom REAL EASY...
O.J.

   

My real first name is Lee and my partner is Steve

If you have a set of headers that will work with the AlterKation, my next question is will they work with the stock K-frame as well?

We would, obviously, like to offer a header that works on both; while it MIGHT work better with one over the other, the goal is to offer something thats universal as apposed to 1-deminsional.

All of our headers are stainless.....................ours get coated here in Houston by PolyDyn

If your headers will work in both configs, what are my chances of getting those headers in my hands?

If all it costs me is a nice new set of headers (in stainless) then we're game..........

OUr design would also be stepped................1 3/4 to 1 7/8 to 3" (6.1) 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 to 3" (5.7)

OUr collectors will also include a bung (pluged) on each side for use of an O2 or a wide band for tuning or dyno.

We're talking right now to Cherry Bomb here in Texas to mandral bend the rest of the system..................they are here in Texas and we can offer it to A and B bodied cars................... this is the system we'll also use on our cars. CHerry bomb offers a whole group of different styled mufflers now and are trying to make a name for themselves...........the A-body design would be based off my 70 Dart while the B-body design will be based off our 67 Charger.

[MyCreation68]

Hey MomsR/T any chance of just the flanges being available? that or the stock style truck manifolds I've been told should fit decent.

[CudaSRT8]

Lee,
Sounds like you may not be up to date with TTI's Gen3 Hemi header evolution.  They too wanted to try and have only one header to fit all applications, with the exception of 5.7 or 6.1 flanges.   You may want to consider all of what I'm about to descibe if you want to pursue making your own headers for sale.   

Their first header was designed to fit A,B, and E bodies with stock K and TF or A833 tranny; also Keisler's Tremec conversion.    They fit the B and E pretty good from what I've seen, but the A body is just too small for this universal header to fit well.   I was at first putting a MP 5.7 crate in my car and bought their engine mounts and the headers but did not like how the engine fit using those mounts OR the way the headers fit.   Keep in mind also, the Tremec conversion sets the rear tranny in a lower, more angled position, which changes the angle of the collector more downward than with a TF or 833.

I said screw this, and bought an AlterKtion for a much better fitting engine mount system and to free up room below for the headers.   Problem was, the headers didn't fit with the AlterK.   Turns out, Bill Reilly was aware the TTIs didn't fit his AlterK and was working on a re-design to make them fit.   He's worked it out with TTI for them to build and sell his version of the header in addition to their own designe for a stock K.   They DO NOT interchange.   Right during that time, I bought a 6.1 and TTI came up with 6.1 flanges.   TTI was VERY gracious, exchanged the 5.7 headers so I now have either the first or second set of production TTIs built for the 6.1 and AlterK.   

Given all the work TTI and Bill have done, I don't think it would be right for me to loan you my headers.  Just doesn't seem right.  I thought if you already have your own designed headers for a stock K, I could try them with my AlterK and see what changes need to be made.   I DON'T think your going to be able to make one header fit all.   There's just too many parameters to consider.   Anyway, that's pretty much what I had in mind.  OR, maybe this could be worked out with Bill like with the TTIs. 

The final result with the TTIs is actually pretty decent, but I think they could be better AND I'd love to have stainless.   Your thoughts??

 

[USCG Charger]

So are you saying that w/MY TTi motor mounts and TTi headers for my 5.7L it wont fit right? I'm going w/a 727 if that makes any difference. What was the problem that u encountered w/ ur 5.7L  and TTi headers? TTi told me they were a perfect fit. Did they change any thing from that original design?

JAson

[MomsR/T]

okay................lemme re-phrase my sentense.

I would like 2 TYPES of headers....................obviouxly 5.7 and 6.1

We already have a 5.7 and 6.1 for the LX..........

BUT...................I'd like one of each to fit the stock-K and ALSO fit the AlterKtion.

You would think that if they were built with the A-Body in mind they would fit the B and E with no issues............but you know what they say about assuming right?

Giving the facts as you present them then no, I wouldn't ask for yours.

As for the truck manifolds...............we're in the business of performance 5.7 / 6.1 HEMI's and the cast iron exhaust logs just aren't what we're looking for and I don't think it would enthuse people to look deeper into our products if that was our answer for exhaust methods.

[MomsR/T]

i would be interested in seeing the difference between the alterkation and the stock-K header to see if there is a compromise.

It will have to be studied..........

[MyCreation68]

As for the truck manifolds...............we're in the business of performance 5.7 / 6.1 HEMI's and the cast iron exhaust logs just aren't what we're looking for and I don't think it would enthuse people to look deeper into our products if that was our answer for exhaust methods.

I wasn't asking if that would be a good option for performance. I was asking if they would fit I figured seeing as this is supposed to be a informative topic about how to do it cheaply but I don't see the point of spending over 700 bucks on headers if I could spend less then 80 for factory log manifolds for the just make it work factor. If I were to do a hemi swap into my dart it would only be because I could do it cheaply in stages.

[CudaSRT8]

USCG,
Whether or not the TTI package "fits" or not is very subjective.   I'm building my car with NO COMPROMISES in mind.  I was going to have to ding the headers here, dent them there and THEN they'd "fit".   NO WAY!   I had to settle for that kind of crap when I was a kid.   I HATE rattles and vibrations!   TTI basically said "gee, we haven't had any other complaints".   Well, if the fit is CLOSE, some people don't mind just dinging and denting their headers. 

I also didn't care for the fit of the mounts.  Shimming was required, which screws up the alignment of the insulator studs.  Hell, just elongate the holes on the K member.  O.K., now there's interference with the drag link, and on and on.  NO WAY!   

My original concept in building my car was to use as much original Chrysler product parts (old school or new high tech) as possible.  This had nothing to do with cost, it was just the concept that I was wanting to follow.   I gave up and have embraced mods like Bill's AlterK because making OEM old school and OEM new school blend together is next to impossible.  All you can really do is try to install the TTI stuff you have and see how you like the "fit".   Hey, given the variation in factory production tolerances when Chrysler built these cars, your stuff may just "fit"... 

[Bakaruda]

I am forced to make my own. My motor sets in the middle of the car and no one has a header that fits with the steering.

[CudaSRT8]

MyCreation,
Well, first, you can't use a factory P.S. box.   Stock manifolds will still need some grinding to clear a manual box.   The outlet on the Ram log manifolds will dump, aiming straight back into your firewall.   Not much room to curve your exhaust pipe down.  I think the manifolds from a Chrysler 300 or a Charger would be a better bet.  They curve downward at the end.  I think you may run into clearance problems with the stock steering column.   However, cutting the column housing back may take care of that.   

I started my swap back in '04.   Since then, there's a LOT more stuff available for these swaps.   Also, Chrysler has introduced the JEEP SRT8 which has a different shape exhaust manifold than the other LX body SRT8s (which won't fit).   They're pretty cool (like a shorty header) and in just eyeballing these, there's a chance they would work pretty nicely.   The port shape is different, but I don't think that's critical.  I'm way too far along in my swap (AlterK and tube headers) to look further into these.   However, if you can find some on Ebay or buy them new (about $375 each using a cooperative Chrysler parts guy), this may be a real nice solution.   Good luck...

[MomsR/T]

As for the truck manifolds...............we're in the business of performance 5.7 / 6.1 HEMI's and the cast iron exhaust logs just aren't what we're looking for and I don't think it would enthuse people to look deeper into our products if that was our answer for exhaust methods.

I wasn't asking if that would be a good option for performance. I was asking if they would fit I figured seeing as this is supposed to be a informative topic about how to do it cheaply but I don't see the point of spending over 700 bucks on headers if I could spend less then 80 for factory log manifolds for the just make it work factor. If I were to do a hemi swap into my dart it would only be because I could do it cheaply in stages.

most likely, from what I've read, the truck manifolds will work...................however I'd take a very close look at the SRT8 Cherokee headers (real headers)....................I bet they'll work and are made of stainless and have a stock heat shield

[MomsR/T]

do not port the 5.7 head to FIT the exhaust port to the 6.1 size..................you'll chop up that head.

The SRT8 Jeep header will be a bigger window...............there isn't much of an issue going smaller to bigger (head to pipe), and we've been doing it on the LX's for over a year now.

As for the "fit" of "doesn't fit" conversation:

I've done alot of cars in my time................a big block in a bucket, 351 in a 65 Mustang, BB in a 57 Chebbie, BB in a A-Body,,,,,,,,etc etc etc; one thing I learned was that MOST of these "fit" or "doesn't fit" is relative because MOST of these cars were NOT the same when you measured clearances from the facotry.

THen consider what type of life this car has lead over the past 35+ years..............

The Dart uses the strut tower as a focal point where alot of force goes.......................alot of force on sheet metal leads to drooping and fatigue..............I saw this BIG TIME on the 65 Mustang which actually has alot in common with the Darts.

SO the TTI stuff may fit like a glove on one car and be horrible on another...................but that's hotrodding.

[MyCreation68]

yeah I checked it out I'm looking at a minimum price for like 900 bucks even from makeitmopar.com(cheap dealer parts) so I think I'm just going to pass. I'll probably just keep with my turbo'd slant six idea not because of cost but because I can probably build a slant for about the same cost and still get close to 20 mpg.

[MomsR/T]

TTi told me they were a perfect fit.
JAson

What did you want them to tell you?

I've learned first hand that when you tell people the truth they aren't as attracted to your products yet when you blow smoke people flock. 

But in all fairness................the car they used as a model may have been slightly less or more fatigued in the shock tower area than your car, my car, another dudes car.................at the end of the day, the only way to get PERFECT is to have them custom made for BIG BIG BIG bucks.

I think another issue is that I believe TTI wanted their system to fit their other existing pipes...................we won't be hand-cuffed here because the rest of our pipes will be built with regards to our design..............so the whole system is designed together.

[USCG Charger]

Well of coures a good saleman is gonna talk about how superior their product is........ TTi said that I will have no fitment issues using these headers on a 67+ Abody........ I asked about steering clearence, head clearence, etc. they said of course the only why they will fit properly is w/their motor mounts...ol... again another sales person! WE will see I guess! If not I'll have to sell my kidney for the alter system......and see if TTi can take these back and trade me for the bills alters system....

Jason

[MomsR/T]

yeah........who knows.............but I tell ya, as a perfect example, putting a 351W in a 65-66 Mustang we ran into the same issue........"This will fit"..................yeah, whatever!


Come to find out later that the shock towers leaned in a bit over the years...................so when we talked to one dude, he wastalking about 52" clearnence and all we had was 49.75"

After talking to other dudes that did that swap, its pretty common.............this is a uni-body car that use sheet metal as an engineered piece of the suspension................so you can make picture-perfect parts but while it fits on one car it doesn't on another.

Talk to REAL restoration guys and they'll tell you that the foctory cars didn't have matched door jams, level hoods, etc etc etc

So in conclusion, the TTI stuff may do beautiful in your car Jason.................but I tell ya, expecting perfect modern built stuff to fit in old un-perfect cars isn't realisitic in my book based upon my experiences doing this stuff over the last 20 years.............

[MomsR/T]

yeah I checked it out I'm looking at a minimum price for like 900 bucks even from makeitmopar.com(cheap dealer parts) so I think I'm just going to pass. I'll probably just keep with my turbo'd slant six idea not because of cost but because I can probably build a slant for about the same cost and still get close to 20 mpg.

what's $900?

Headers?

[MyCreation68]

yeah the jeep SRT8 headers about about 450 each

[MomsR/T]

I tell ya what........

If you get serious about it and want to give it a shot, I have 2 sets of 6.1 LX (car) 6.1 headers at the shop............they fit tight (snug) and curve down.

If you want to "try" and fit it in..................if it doesn't work you send them back.

If they work, we normally sell those for $100 uncoated and $350 coated inside and out.

You have nothing to loose other than a little time and if I can help you accomplish that I'll do it.

If we find the Jeeps are what we really need, then I can get a "couple" but there just aren't too many "extra" jeep manifolds laying around...................but if the LX 6.1 headers work, then I can get those all day long from guys switching to long tubes.

[Bakaruda]

I will send you a PM.

[Q-ship]

Since the original posters questions were answered, and since this thread has already gotten off topic (in a very informative way), I have a few questions for Lee.

Lee, do you have some sonic test figures on the 5.7 blocks that you can post? How about the 6.1? I would love to know how consistent either of them is as our old engines are all over the place. For my last BB stroker build, I tested 14 (fourteen) 440 blocks before finding ONE that was desirable for a build-up, so I, and others would really appreciate some actual sonic tests on the G3 hemi blocks if you can provide them .... Bad and good.

Can you tell us what the CH and ring spacing is on the pistons you are using for your stock and stroker builds? This appears to be the biggest problem with the G3's as the top ring is so close to the crown on the stock motors (as well as extremely tight ring gaps) that any detonation/and or substantial increases in combustion chamber temperatures (either through modifications, or power adders) can cause piston failure.  How are you handling this, and what rod ratio/CH figures are you getting on the various strokers?

Also, can you please tell us how we can contact you (website, or ?) to get info, pricing, suggestions and ordering instructions on your kits/parts?

I have many more questions, but if you can please answer these, I, and everyone else will thank you.

Even though I have been beating on these cars since they were new, I am a recent convert to the amazing tech and engineering that these new engine/trans offerings posses and am in the process of converting my 69 RR vert., over to a 5.7/545RFE drive train. I just bought a new 5.7 engine and have a line on a couple of transmissions. After that (and a steep learning curve), I plan on converting my other cars over to a more performance oriented version of the G3 setup.

Thanks for your info and help.

[DavidBrenner]

yeah I checked it out I'm looking at a minimum price for like 900 bucks even from makeitmopar.com(cheap dealer parts) so I think I'm just going to pass. I'll probably just keep with my turbo'd slant six idea not because of cost but because I can probably build a slant for about the same cost and still get close to 20 mpg.

I have a really nice Slant 6 for sale. It runs 15.66 in the 1/4 with 3.07 gear and weighing in at 3400 lbs with me. Buy the short block or whole motor.

[MomsR/T]

Lee, do you have some sonic test figures on the 5.7 blocks that you can post? How about the 6.1? I would love to know how consistent either of them is as our old engines are all over the place. For my last BB stroker build, I tested 14 (fourteen) 440 blocks before finding ONE that was desirable for a build-up, so I, and others would really appreciate some actual sonic tests on the G3 hemi blocks if you can provide them .... Bad and good.

Can you tell us what the CH and ring spacing is on the pistons you are using for your stock and stroker builds? This appears to be the biggest problem with the G3's as the top ring is so close to the crown on the stock motors (as well as extremely tight ring gaps) that any detonation/and or substantial increases in combustion chamber temperatures (either through modifications, or power adders) can cause piston failure.  How are you handling this, and what rod ratio/CH figures are you getting on the various strokers?

Also, can you please tell us how we can contact you (website, or ?) to get info, pricing, suggestions and ordering instructions on your kits/parts?

I have many more questions, but if you can please answer these, I, and everyone else will thank you.

Even though I have been beating on these cars since they were new, I am a recent convert to the amazing tech and engineering that these new engine/trans offerings posses and am in the process of converting my 69 RR vert., over to a 5.7/545RFE drive train. I just bought a new 5.7 engine and have a line on a couple of transmissions. After that (and a steep learning curve), I plan on converting my other cars over to a more performance oriented version of the G3 setup.

Thanks for your info and help.

I'll try and take these one at a time so I miss something please ask again:

Sonic tests: We are not the first and prob not the 5th to take the the step to .080 overbore a 5.7 so when we did it, it wasn't breaking new ground. I will get with my partner and try to come back with HARD numbers for you; however providing 10 - 15 sets of numbers aren't possible because I haven't even touched that many of these YET. My assumption is that, due to modern casting techniques, we'll have continuity beyond anything done in the past.

Compression Heights: This varies depending on combo however to answer you major concern; the 5.7 has about .100 thickness in this crown area you discussed while our piston (and many of those on the market) are .300+ (yes I am rounding numbers for coversation purposes). The 6.1 crown is a bit thicker but nothing to write home about.

Contact / Website: Long story short is that my partner Steve and I started looking at these back in the summer of 2004 and this was all a hobby. WInter of 2006 we set out to have our heads sold and figured we would sell about 1 set a month and we'd take this money and buy some car-junk.................well those 2 heads sold quickly which turned into 4 orders that turned into 8 - 10 - and now its just completely out of control.

We learned that heads alone made about 10 - 15 RWHP and that the true bottle neck wasn't the head (with regards to the stock cam) rather it was the cam itself.

SO with our experience and ability to map, we sat down on some paper and started to map out what we thought would make a nice cam. Comp already had the XFI260 and XFI 268 out and a couple were on the street..................we considered their overlap and worked backwards from there. We found huge success in this area and in less than a year we've sold 74+ cams with orders to fill even TODAY.

TO give you an idea................a stock Magnum will make about 280 to the wheels on a DynaJet.............heads, cam, full exhaust it makes 390 - 420 rwhp, depending on combo, with about a 18% loss on the rollers.

After screwing up a few shipments, getting cross ways by forgetting crap here and there, AND considering we were BEAT TO DEATH from both working 40 - 60 hours at our regular jobs then 20+ hours a week at this for a year.......................we finally hired our first employee.

SO with an employee, I had to get a bigger junk-yarddddd...................rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........................shop to house all the crap we've accumulated.............you see, we never set out to make money, so we spent every dime on cores, stock items, and stuff to cut up and study.

SO now, our website is ALMOST done.....................I should be able to go live by this Friday and no later than Wed of next week.

I am talking to Bill right now about also distributing ALterKation products and putting a set on our "show / track" car...........

This company will sell stuff we R&D and build, other stuff on the market, and most everything you may need as it partains to this 3rd Gen HEMI.................we focus the business around the engine as apposed to around a body style.

Igf you would like to chat some, please PM me your number and we can talk.............

[MomsR/T]

FRI Piston - 4.00 bore 5.7

CH -  1.23
Volume - +3.9cc
Rings - 1.5m, 1.5m, 3.0m
Pin - .927 w/ spirolock
Weight - 469 grams

We set gaps based upon customer's request or build..................typical 18 to 22 top ring

[USCG Charger]

Well Lee,

I think I'm gonna take the plunge and go with the alterkation set up..... yikes... I figure use my stock oil pan (truck) I'm thinkin I need some baffels though.... then sell my disc brake set up that I already have for a 73 swinger.... I contacted TTi and they would take my headers back w/ no charger and send me the ones for the alterkation!

[MomsR/T]

good luck on that..............

we're buying a alterkation as well and starting our distributorship at the turn of the year (thanks to Bill's help)

If you are looking to sell your oil pan make sure you contact us because we may need it for the Gremlin..............we haven't test fit the 5.7 in it yet because its still at the chassis shop