5.7 in 4-speed 64 dart

[MomsR/T]

THERE IS NO   CHEAP WAY TO DO THIS CONVERSION,,,hot rodding has become a rich mans hobby,,,

I disagree.............

I hope (and so do others) prove that this can be done for as cheap as can be expected.

If we were going to build a 400 - 450hp 340-LA Motor, many of the same cost would be encountered.

TTI headers - same
New Motor Mounts - more or less
Fully welded SS pan w/ baffles, trap doors, pickup tubes etc - maybe same maybe less....depends
Intake - just a little more
Coil on plug injection - This doesn't even exist for the 340 and the closest thing we would have is the Digital 6 or DIgi 7 and thats expensive
Crank-rods-pistons - same
Machine costs - same
starter, flywheel, coverter - same same same
Carb - same

The difference is that the 340 stuff is a plug and play and these beginnings of the HEMI requires a little more figuring out for the small things..................but it will come around as we explore it and work together to make it happen. So for "ease of function" you have to give the nod to the 340.

The difference in the HEMI is that to gain 425rwhp (roughly 484 to the fly wheel) you have a small cam, good milage, in a super super light package..................and not only that, but we can have 14- 16 inches of vacuum and hardly anyone would guess how much power the thing has.................

Another issue is that we have all 485 rwhp and didn't rev any higher than 6200 rpm while if we were to cam it up and rev to 7000 rpm we could make another 20 rwhp at the expense of a little bottom end torque.....oh yeah.................and this is STILL the SMALLEST STOCK bottom end.

If you go and talk to a Chevy guy and ask them is there ANY advantage of running a pre-vortec 350 in ANYTHING versus the new LS1, they will laugh as you..........

Now, we are blessed to have something even BETTER than an LS1/2

Cheap?

It would be fun to get a few of these cars built then talk to our favorite MOPAR mag and ask them if they would like to make a "Dollar per HP shootout"

I would personally take this on...............

Use "as advertised LIST pricing"

Use "New parts"

400 bhp just to qualify

LA motor vs small block HEMI vs B/RB

Then devide the total number of horse power into the total amount spent and declare a winner...........

Anyone know an editor? (I betcha you'd sell alot of copies of this one) 

We'll build the motor.................we'll make ours a 345 / 5.7 HEMI

[DavidBrenner]

Been doing some research and thought I'd post some finding.
There looks like there is lot of ways to go if your trying to use the EFI stuff all ready on the motor. Let me be clear by saying this. The factory computer as of this writing should NOT be used and all of the part numbers provided don't use it. Numbers listed ofcourse are not all options, but some that I have dug up. I am sure Lee has alots of other options that I'll let him give because he know more about those.
From what I've been told.
From your local Dodge dealer. Your price will likly vary.
P5153339  This is a complete system that will control both fuel and spark management. I think it comes with a new throttle body. $4507 This one is for stock motors only and is not programmable or adjustable.

or
P5153528 Computer  $2195
P5155529 Harness  $681
P5153689 Throttle body  $482
These 3 used together is programmable and will run both fuel and spark management.

or
P5153340 Complete system using a carburator. $4230 It also manages spark. I don't remember if the carb is included or not.

or
FAST EFI Kit made for the 5.7L Hemi designed to be used in old muscle cars and the like. $3400 It provides for both fuel and spark management. It replaces the throttle body and uses the stock sensors.

Just heard about not needing to use an oil filter relocation kit. It seem that the new SRT Jeeps have a 45* oil filter adapter that can be used to clear the K-Member. The dealer I talked to thinks this is the correct part number.  53013680AD  $88  I am not to confindent in the guy.
Hope some of this helps.

Brennan

[satellite65]

WOW! This is starting to get interesting. I'm still stuck in old school big block land but the new technology is great. And this is only the beginning. You guys are on the forefront of a whole new era....Keep going!!!

Steve

[DavidBrenner]

Another thing to note. Again from what I heard and I heard it from the people at weldtechstainless.com.,(They have an oil pan to fit factory K-Member), If you use the LX (car) platform motor, you will need to get the main bearing cap BOLT from a truck motor to hold the oil pickup TUBE. Also you will need the truck dip stick which installs in the block as opossed to in the front cover on the car motors. As I understand the truck from covers don't have provisions for a dip stick tube in them, and with the new pan, well there no sump in the front anyway.
This kind of stuff is no big deal, but it sucks not having this info when your in the middle of the install and have to make yet another trip to the salvage yard.

It is my goal to post anything I come across in my research. I will post it as fact if I beleive it to be and also let you know if I am not sure. I think its important brain storm are way through posting any info that could be helpful. The worst part of trying something new ofcourse is not knowing the end costs and pit falls. The more you know the better. The more laid out it is, the more likly more people will opt to use the Hemi and as a result, more aftermarket parts will be made. Its a WIN WIN.

PS I bought one of the 5.7L Hemi OverRuns. Engine, new truck front cover, waterpump and shipped to my door from Colarodo to Florida. $3508

[USCG Charger]

yup the price is gonna be about the same to rebuild a nice 360 or do a 5.7L.... I know it for a fact... I have a 360 that I bout a cheap rebuild kit from summit so I could put one in my 68... Well after crunching #'s I found it was almost the same across the board price wise. I still had to do a 8.75, rad., disc brakes, tranny,alt,intake,car,etc...... I figure get this thing on the road driving by march 08 and later if or when some one comes out w/a computer system thats affordable then I'll make the switch then if I'm not happy w/what I've got. I'm not sayin that a stroker or even a stock LA motor can't put run a 3rd gen Hemi... I just like that fact of having one in a Abody to go along w/my 06 Charger hemi..... I'm very new to this gm and thinks to Lee and FRI they have took me under their wing and showed me a few little things here and there. Lee an knows alot of ppl in this business and is always trin to figure out how he can make these 4200 lb Lx cars for faster... I cant wait to see what a 3100 lb will do.

[DavidBrenner]

The motor I bought has MDS. It was my understanding that you could simply not hook it up. I found this question and answer on the XV Motorsports site. www.xvmotorsports.com.
Q: I HAVE AN MDS 5.7 HEMI, WILL YOUR KIT
WORK WITH IT?
A: If you have a multiple displacement system (MDS)
version of the 5.7 HEMI you need to purchase our
MDS eliminator kit (PN 11-1205) which comes with
everything you need, including instructions to get
your HEMI fi ring on all eight cylinders all the time.  $150

Does any one know how the MDS system really works? On top of that does anyone know the basic logic programming that the factory computer would have used to control it? Another word, what inputs are considered. Could likly control it using vacuum and rpm and throttle postion inputs. Shut down those 4 injectors and the oil feeding those lifters. I don't think using the MDS system is a good idea if your going to be using a carberator. Yes with the valves not openning on those cylinders the air wouldn't go to those runners but I think the fuel would puddle and run over and sit on the valves. Then they open and hydrolock the cylinder. Maybe I am being a little extreme, but I would sure think about it more before proceding.

[USCG Charger]

DAvid,

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1266926.html?page=3

Jason

[MomsR/T]

David................lets work together and I'll archive everything we find out in my website's TECH artical

I will then capture the parts that seem "reasonable" to sell (cost/benefit) and catalog those for sale

David, Jason, and Cary...............we can also use your pictures to create our own database / archive as a blue print for DIYers

I can also pass this along to Bill so he may add it to his TECH section if he so pleases; in turn we'd also like to capture some of his tech articals to corrispond with his RMS parts for sale.

Lastly, David, you did not include the XV motorsports controllers they offer.................their carb stuff is the MOST price competitive and easy to use.

MDS_____________________

The MDS sees TPS, load, gear selection, and speed

THis system is a 0.5 volt system

When the car is in DRIVE (final gear), sees very litte change (maybe +/- 5%), sees very little load, then it will give the MDS sylenoids 0.5 volts................these in turn restrict oil to the lifters and then they do NOT open the valves................it also stops the injectors

When David and I were talking via landline, we figured we could do this by using a 0.5 volt TB / TPS sensor to a relay, a 0.5 volt MAP sensor, a whole other relay, and depending on tranny, a push button switch...........

In this senerio we are using the MAP like a HOBBS switch..............

You wire the 2 relays (remember, relays are nothing more than "IF THIS............THEN YOU DO THIS" statements)

Wire it so that IF the TPS is less than 50% (0.25 volts) AND MAP is less than 25% (0.125 volts) AND gear selector is ENGAGED (final drive) THEN apply 0.5 VOLTS to the MDS selenoids AND UNSWITCH the ground wires to the 4 injectors.

TO some this sounds mind-boggling, but this COULD be made into a harness we make here in HOUSTON then sell as a kit..................but first we need to (as a group) see what system is best suited for our needs with consideration to cost/benefit/ease of use. I suspect our KIT would be different on the stock system, vs the FAST system, vs the MOPAR system.

Discuss?

[USCG Charger]

So are you saying that FRI is gonna try and tap intot EFI market? You are asying that FRI is gonna make their own wireing harness to run the 5.7L in a Abody? If so.... kudos... thats pretty cool... MDS wont work on a stroker through will it?

[MomsR/T]

So are you saying that FRI is gonna try and tap intot EFI market? You are asying that FRI is gonna make their own wireing harness to run the 5.7L in a Abody? If so.... kudos... thats pretty cool... MDS wont work on a stroker through will it?

Oh yeah..............our plan  was to do EFI, however I want to do the carb and get all that crap figured out so I know it was well as I know the LX stuff. I figure once I know the carb stuff inside and out then I'll branch out and learn all the EFI stuff............I think we'll find one type better than the others both in price and function.

We can agree to all work together and catalog what CAN and can't be done so others have a clear path to take.

I'm not saying our own wiring harness to run the whole car but a wiring harness that we could make to adapt to other systems on the market so you could retain MDS..................and yes, MDS can work on a stroker with regards to MAXIMUM lift..............of our cams we have out now, we can make the MDS work with the Sidewinder, Comp 268, Patriot, Hellfire, and Tomahawk.

THe MDS will NOT work with the Comp 273, Littleboy, Fatman, and MOAB cams............

So........................David is going to continue to chase down options, Cary and Jason are in the middle of getting ready for their, and I know FLyboy in Dallas is talking about doing one too..............

We're going to forego doing my Dart and Steve and I (instead) talked about doing his Charger so we could document the tranformation to a B-Body (no sense in 5 of us all doing an A-Body).

I know we're going to do a carb version

David and Cary talked about doing EFI versions

[USCG Charger]

Gotcha Lee,

I'm doing Carb. (as of now) for easiness... if thats a word! ....... But later down the road I'd be more than willing to offer my car up or what ever I can do to help to get EFI going.... But like you said... it's alot of R & D involved in this.... And with you  guys being so busy w/just doing heads and cam... now short blocks.... ur gonna be hard pressed to just find the time to do it. We'll see how a cab stroker runs in my car... if its terrible.. well u know I'l be callin bothering you!..... I would love to see a 6.1 ported intake on my stroker... I dont really care about MDS.. hell thats why I bought a Abody in the 1st place so I could hot rod it! But 15-18 MPG does sound sweet!

Jason

[MomsR/T]

we should still see good milage out of these due to weight and if the owner is cautious with their final drive numbers.........

Alot of guys that have by-passed their MSD on the LX's have seen very little drop in milage because they never stop stomping on the gas...........seriously.

InferAl (screen name) still sees averages in the 20 to 21 mpg area and he was running 12.2 to 12.4 on the stock 5.7 bottom end in +1000 DA weather in a 4200 pound car.

As for all the damn time spent porting..........we are in our final stages of having our design CNC-ed...................our CNC will be 0.10 too short and we'll finish all our heads by hand.............but instead of 1 week to finish each job we'll cut it down to 2.5 hours per head which includes the blue-print / install height.

I feel MOST our motor kits will be sold in KIT form so all we do is box and ship...................our short and long blocks will be assembled by Dale, trucked 15 minutes to our doorstep and then picked up by motor frieght.

Steve and I will be working on our LX Drag Pack suspension parts, an LX total fuel system, and the A and B body swap parts / kits / and systems...................once we have the final assembly done and we're happy, we'll contract with a fab-shop and mass produce it and ship it out of our shop.

As we get busy from here on out......................we'll push it till we can't take it any more then hire people slowly..................I've neer had to lay anyone off and I never want to...................we've grown slow and steady and I have put all our money into assets; so we are stable.

[Think3205]

Lee,
I think you should write a book, 

[MomsR/T]

..............yeah, thats what our TECH section will be......................like a blogg

BUT, if you look at how much info guys like Bill and Steve DeTar have accumulated, it would floor you.

[Think3205]

..............yeah, thats what our TECH section will be......................like a blogg

BUT, if you look at how much info guys like Bill and Steve DeTar have accumulated, it would floor you.

oh i'm sure it would! i have nothing but great respect for everyone on here that has done thier homework over the years to know what they know now. it would take me a lifetime to know half of what some of these guys know. i am just thankful for a site like this where i can log on and get all my questions answered and then some. i've probebly learned more on this site than i have learned in college since i started a couple years ago...   

[DavidBrenner]

It was my understanding that the 904 trans would bolt up (minus one bolt) and the factory (hemi) flex plate would bolt to the 904 torque converter, done. I was talking to TTI about the motor mounts for an A-Body with spool type slant6 mounts, which they are currently designing right now and should be ready in a few weeks, and they mentioned an adapter or shim plate being needed. Whats the real story on this?

[USCG Charger]

an adapter for for which mounts? I have the TTI mounts for biscuit type mounts..... They didn't say anything aabout some adapter plate..... I hope I have everything....

[DavidBrenner]

an adapter for for which mounts? I have the TTI mounts for biscuit type mounts..... They didn't say anything aabout some adapter plate..... I hope I have everything....

No no not the engine mounts. I happen to be talking to them about engine mounts. Right now they don't have engine mounts for the hemi to bolt into an A-Body that had a Slant6 with spool type mounts. I think these where from 73-76 maybe.
The engine to trans connection was later talked about and that what I was talking about.

[DavidBrenner]

Back to the MDS and not to be confused with MSD Let me get this straight. The MDS if left unplugged WILL or WILL NOT make the engine run on 4 cylinders all the time?
Other than requiring user input and not being a seemless driving experiance, could one wire the MDS to a simple toggle switch. The only problem I would see is if you were driving around saving fuel in the 4 cylinder mode and you nailed it, you simply would be underpowered and not go very fast unless to flip the "power" switch. Hell if you don't mind the car being a bit sluggush what the problem with this, especaily with a 3100lbs car instead of the 4500 lbs car these Hemi's came in.
Any problems or thoughts on this?

[MomsR/T]

The MDS could be done with a simple flp of the switch as you suggest and would be stupid easy to wire....................but thats not really what you want.

As for the spool type mount, I'd need to think about that one because you stumped me for a second.

[DavidBrenner]

What went wrong with the 4-6-8 engine (chevy maybe?)
I think the fuel should be shut off a spilt second before the lifters colapse and maybe even kill the spark to that cylinder. Lets assume that cylinder is on the compresstion stroke and the MDS is turned on. The cylinder fires and pushes the piston down. The piston then comes up for the exhaust stroke and, well, the exhaust valve isn't open. I realize that the gases will work there way out around the rings, but will it do it before it blows the head gasket?
Maybe the valves don't close instintly when the MDS is switch on. If that is the case, then no problem. Does anyone know one of the enginners on the MDS project? His/her input would be great.
I also think a RPM Window (Holding) switch should be used to ensure that switching is done at a lower RPMs.

[Rich]

Kudos Guys...This thread has had more pertinent information in it than I think all the magazine articles I've read in the last four years...I'm fired up that Lee and Bill and everyone else is making this happen! Keep it up!

[USCG Charger]

one issue I'm scared about is... w/the biscuit type mounts and TTi motor mounts do I run any risk of tearing the motor mounts like they used to do on these biscuit type mounts w/big tq and hp #'s... Or will the TTi mounts keep that from happening... I'm planning on close to 500 hp and a tq monster.... that last thing I want is for my mounts to give and trash my Hemi....

[hydro]

Good questions on the motor mounts. Is TTi working on a conversion for the later spool type engine mounts? I would think that is a better system than the older bisquit type mounts.

Lee, is that website up yet?

[DavidBrenner]

TTI should have the spool type mounts ready in a month or two. They said a "few weeks".

[DavidBrenner]

Lee , where ya at?
Must be working franticly on your web site. 

Now I know that I said I was going to leave my new engine completly stock,.........but IF I where to do anything to it I might change out the cam. Seeing as I am going to swap the front covers....... maybe I should. One thing that is for sure, I don't want anything to crazy and I want it to be very easy to drive. Another words.... Good driveability. I will be running some type of programmable EFI. I haven't decided and I am waiting a bit for maybe something nice to comeout. The EFI system will be the last purchase.
What cam should I be considering? It is also my understanding that I should swap to the 6.1 valve springs if I change the cam. I should beable to pressurize the cylinder and change them out without pulling the heads.....correct?
What lb injectors come factory installed on the 5.7? I really don't want to have to go bigger on thoughs.

[Think3205]

Back to the MDS and not to be confused with MSD Let me get this straight. The MDS if left unplugged WILL or WILL NOT make the engine run on 4 cylinders all the time?
Other than requiring user input and not being a seemless driving experiance, could one wire the MDS to a simple toggle switch. The only problem I would see is if you were driving around saving fuel in the 4 cylinder mode and you nailed it, you simply would be underpowered and not go very fast unless to flip the "power" switch. Hell if you don't mind the car being a bit sluggush what the problem with this, especaily with a 3100lbs car instead of the 4500 lbs car these Hemi's came in.
Any problems or thoughts on this?

that sounds pretty cool, a daily driver with some power that can be a gas saver at the same time type-of-deal... i like it!

[USCG Charger]

I building mine so I dont have to go crazy on my daily driver (charger r/t).... but I still fully expect to get 15-20 mpg on my build

JAson

[gremlinsteve]

hello.
im Lee's other half in this

i think flipping a "mds" switch on would be fine. we are all adults and should realize that when and if you get the vehicle into a certain mood where it would need to be turned "off" then you would perform that function.

the chrysler computer uses alot of differant readings to actuate the system. oil temp is but one of them. vacum readings ect are also included.

the only issue i would have doing this is switching a mds switch on when you are running a carb.. i foresee issues there.

you might even end up doing it better with the carb over injection. the system kills the injector for that cyl also and thats hard wired into a stock pcm.

so its doable yes, but there are a  couple of issues that would remain.


steve

[Q-ship]

Keep in mind that the stock power rating of the G3 is rated DIN (German method with full exhaust, accessories, fully heat soaked, etc.), but if bolted to an engine dyno they put out 365 to 375 HP stock, which is why the Mopar crate engine is rated at 360 HP even though it’s the same engine as the 330 HP Jeep engine, etc. I only