5.7 in 4-speed 64 dart

[Joe-Dokes]

Gocirino,

Thanks for the pics.  The engine looks beautiful sitting in the engine bay.  Let me get this straight.  The alternator fit, with some notching of the frame rail.  Correct?  How about the power steering pump and the AC compressor?  In the picture it looks like you still have the units bolted to the engine, were they able to clear on the drivers side?

Also what transmission did you decide to go with. 

Thanks

Joe Dokes

[CudaSRT8]

Note that GOCIRINO is using an AlterKtion.   This makes all the difference in the world !    This virtually eliminates interferences when using the car front cover.   Well, almost.    The AC pump has all kinds of clearance.  Plenty of room for the hoses, etc.  The P.S. pump for the car setup sits up out of the way of anything.  Not a problem at all.

My earlier post mentioned boxing a notch out of the frame for the alternator.  Keep in mind this is with a stock K and TTI mounts.  Bill sets up the AlterK with the engine's crank centerline equal to a stock factory position.  This is SUPPOSED TO BE true with the TTI mounts on a stock K member.  Regardless, the AlterK provides a better fit here.  However, even with the AlterK, when using the car setup, the alternator will not clear the frame flange (the flange area that's spot welded together).   You can make enough clearance by grinding the flange back and re-welding if you go beyond the spot welds.      GOCIRINO, did you have to grind back beyond the spot welds?

My solution to the clearance problem was to cut the original brackets off from the AlterK and move them over by 5/8 inch.  This squared up the engine better in the engine bay (they tend to be crooked in there) and gave me all the clearance I needed for the alternator (still plenty of room for the AC pump on the other side).   

By moving my engine over toward the driver side, I now have less clearance with the steering column.   However, there's still about 5/16 - 3/8 inch clearance (with the housing cut way back near the firewall).  I figure that if the engine torques up at all (doubt that it can), it will move AWAY from the column and not be a problem.

CARY, didn't you say you CENTERED your engine?   That's hard for me to picture.   How's that work out with the steering column?   What steering column are you using and how's the clearance?   Did you use more than 2 u-joints?   

GOCIRINO, I've had my engine in and out many times like yourself, but from the top side.   When I perform my FINAL assembly, I hope and plan to assemble it (with headers installed) to the AlterK and install it up from the bottom.   This works well this way, right?   Sure would make for a much easier final assembly.

[Bakaruda]

My motor is 1/8 of a inch to the right. I used 2 ujoints for my steering. I am also using a flaming river column.

[gocirino]

Gocirino,

Thanks for the pics.  The engine looks beautiful sitting in the engine bay.  Let me get this straight.  The alternator fit, with some notching of the frame rail.  Correct?  How about the power steering pump and the AC compressor?  In the picture it looks like you still have the units bolted to the engine, were they able to clear on the drivers side?

Also what transmission did you decide to go with. 

Thanks

Joe Dokes

Hi again Joe,

Just as CudaSRT8 mentioned, I cut the frame and then welded the exposed seam. Everything else fit without having to do anything.

As for the tranny, I went with the Keisler 4 speed auto (aka; GM 4L60E). This was advertised as a no cut easy install.... no way baby! After some surgery and fabrication to the upper trans x member and a to the firewall
where it contacts the trans dipstick... I got it installed. If I did it again I would 5 speed it manually or drop a 727 in it. Keisler and I went through many rounds of discussions, their instructions for the install were sorely incomplete not even providing
the most basic info. Much has changed now on their end from my dis-satisfaction and changes are being made.

[gocirino]

  "GOCIRINO, did you have to grind back beyond the spot welds?"

I  just cut the overlap back to the frame and welded the seam... almost looks factory.

As for install and removal, i work pretty much by myself so I use a lift, as you mentioned, and a roll around dolly that I built
so it is a breeze to take in and out if you go slow and align as you go. It helps to make the dolly cradle the same angle as the
installed angle too.

[Ruster]

Ruster,
Welcome to the site.   I joined this site when I intended to drop a 440 six pack in my cuda.   However, I fell in love with the new Hemi and haven't looked back since.   I've done considerable research in the process of putting a Gen3 Hemi in my car.  My build "mock up" is pretty much complete and I'm now in the process of welding up engine bay holes that will not be used. 

I'll answer as many of your questions as I can, but only the ones I KNOW by my own experience.   Given the long road this has been for me, I'm happy to help anyone who is just starting this venture and save them any time, mistakes and money that I can.  However, the big thing I've noticed is all the variable wants and needs that everyone has for putting in a Gen3.   Some people want stock susp. like you do (and I did when I first started); some people want an 833 4 speed;  some want Tremec 5 or 6 speed;  some want 727 or 904 TF;  some want an automatic w/OD.   These variables change many aspects of the swap and some people will have to forge ahead on their own to find the answers.       

As you noticed, some of the input on this thread has been wrong or just hearsay.  Let me QUALIFY my input by stating my actual references and experience so far:
I studied several converted cars at the '05 SEMA show, talked to the owners and took pictures.   
I have a MP 5.7 FI crate engine (probably going to sell this engine)
I have a 6.1 SRT8 engine 
I have a Tremec 5 speed
I have stock suspension (now removed)
I now have the AlterKtion suspension
I have the AlterK / TTI headers for the 6.1
I have the MP engine harness, ECU and cable throttle body
The dealer I use has allowed me to experiment with new, factory parts for my conversion and return the parts that don't work (this has been a real blessing and allowed me to experiment without concern for cost).

I first started putting the 5.7 crate engine in (which has the truck front cover) using a stock suspension, TTI mount kit and TTI headers.  This combination bolts in, but I did not like the "fit".   For that matter, the left torsion bar would not fit with the header in place (by approx 1/4").  I would have had to dent the header in 2 places to put it together.   The fit around the steering box was also very tight and would have likely hit the header tube at some point or another when the car was up and running.  In my view, TTI made a valiant effort, but I was not willing to settle for the fit. 

I also trial fitted the 6.1 engine with stock suspension (car front cover and accessories).  The right frame rail would need to be notched roughly 1" square by 8" long to clear the alternator.   The AC pump would not clear the engine mount stand and mount (bisquit type).   From what I remember, I think the #1 header tube also interfered and possibly even the steering box.   Bottom line, you're trying to fit an AC pump down where there's already a bunch of other stuff!   I highly recommend trying the Hemi Shop kit for using the truck cover / accessories with the 6.1 intake.  When I was going to use the 5.7 crate engine, I know there was no concern about hood clearance.   Unless the kit RAISES the alt. and pump, I would think it will still clear the hood.  (Let us know on that.) 

Ruster, what transmission do you intend to use?  

Good info, thanks.  I'll look at it both ways with the car cover and then with the hemi shop (PR&D) brackets and see which looks better.   I was intending to use a richmond ROD 6 speed that I have.  Short of the clearancing of the floor board, modifying the crossmember and driveshaft length it should be about the same a using an 833.  I have an 833 lakewood scatter shield I'm going to try to use and then make what ever spacer I need to get the for/aft placement on the flywheel right.  I'm thinking of modifying an aluminum 426 hemi style flywhee I have by welding up the bolt holes and redrilling them and just turning the right register on a lathe.  Pretty sure I can make that happen.  Then it looks like the small starter is the way to go for clearance.  Anyone used a small block lakewood scatershiled with one of these yet?

[USCG Charger]

Ruster,

I think if ur using headers u have to use the mini starter. If u look on the TTi web site they give u the exact part #'s u need for this.

Jason

[CudaSRT8]

GOCIRINO,
Thanks for posting that info about modifying the frame.   That's the kind of info that people considering this swap or just starting out need to know so they can prepare.  They need to know that it's not just a "slam / dunk" install.   Since I had moved my engine over 5/8", I actually had a good 1/4" clearance with the flange.   I wanted more, so I did exactly what you did.  Since that area is nearly above where the K member bolts to the frame, I was concerned about stress cracking that weld, so I'm working on a nice 1/8" reinforcement angle plate over that area.   I'll finish it off real nice so that it will just look like it could have come that way from the factory.

RUSTER,
Oh boy.  You're on your own with regard to stuffing the Richmond in there.   I ran into a guy may years ago with a '67 cuda w/440 and a Richmond 6 speed.   I do remember him saying it took a bit of modification to the tunnel and crossmember to get it in there.   Should be nice though.   As for the RB426 flywheel, I don't see why not, if you have the means to accomplish that.   Just a tip for you, (and this would be for others considering a swap), you can use a flywheel from a 2004, 3/4 Dodge Ram with Hemi and manual trans.  It bolts right up (obviously) and then you use the starter motor for the same application.   

Speaking of starters: 
I tried to use the standard Mopar Performance mini starter at first (I think it's on TTI's "list" of starters that work).   The registration of the armature area of the motor mounted on the flange is somewhat outward, toward the frame.  It either HIT the TTI header tube or was REAL CLOSE (I forget which, but can dig it out and re-check and post).  After looking at my own Ram truck, that's when I discovered the perfect starter (for me).   The registration of the armature part of the motor on the mounting flange is more straight up, tucked up more near the block.  By using it, there is TONS of clearance to the nearest header tube (probably 2" or so).  From what I can see, there should be no worry about the starter getting too hot  from the headers.   One thing to note though.   According to Bill Reilly (and this makes sense), he found out the Gen 3 Hemi starters have teeth that are of a metric measurement so they engage incorrectly with an older flywheel or torque converter starter ring.  You may want to keep that in mind when checking into flywheels /starters.   I would have never thought of that, but it makes sense since it's a "metric influenced" engine. 

Ruster, as for bellhousing:   I bought the MP scattershield.  It's just a basic Lakewood (has their stickers on the box) sc for a small block.  All they did was bore the center hole out big enough for the 833 OD trans (that has the BIG front bearing housing) and then they give you an adapter ring to use a regular 833 and another adapter ring if you're using a Tremec.   Oh, and obviously its drilled (with welded in threaded bungs) to accept the 833s and a Tremec.   If you have a small block Lakewood, I would think it should just be a matter of modifying it to accept the Richmond, if it isn't already set up to accept it.   

I'll get back to you guys about the MP mini starter.   Just need to dig it out and fit it up there...

[CudaSRT8]

GOCIRINO,
I see you are using a cable throttle body that hooks up on the pass. side.   My MP piece hooks up on the driver side.  Regardless, have you found a cable that works with the stock pedal assembly / firewall  and this throttle body?    Also, do you know of a bracket that bolts up around the throttle body to hold that end of the cable or are you just making your own bracket?   

[gocirino]

GOCIRINO,
I see you are using a cable throttle body that hooks up on the pass. side.   My MP piece hooks up on the driver side.  Regardless, have you found a cable that works with the stock pedal assembly / firewall  and this throttle body?    Also, do you know of a bracket that bolts up around the throttle body to hold that end of the cable or are you just making your own bracket?   

My quick response is I just received a Lokar 36" cable and will try to make it work with the stock pedal assembly. I'll keep you posted.

As for the starter, I went through many before finding one that was close. because of my trans. I went with a Mopar mini starter and had to cut the two oil pan bolt bosses
on the block at 45' angles to accommodate the starter. (I had to back out the two oil pan bolts first.) That seems like a standard set-up for many 6.1/TTi folks. If you need more info or some pix let me know.

Also, have you guys addressed fuel issues yet? I fabbed my tank for an in-tank pump with an in-line regulator/filter/return combining -6 fittings with the not so great Bundy fittings.
If you like I can post pix later on this too.

Good Luck!

[Ruster]

"Gocrino" that looks like quite a project your doing.  Very cool.  I like the dolly too. 

I checked the old hemi flywheel on a 5.7 crank I had laying around and the register is the same.  The bolt holes are also no intersecting any of the other holes so it should just be a redrill of holes in the old school flywheel and possibly a spacer at the bell housing or crank flange to get the ring gear to starter and throwout bearing/piolet bushing depth correct.  I didn't get the 5.7 short block over to where my car was this weekend to do any trial fitting though.

I'm wondering if the LX SRT8 headars are not too far off if I can angle mill a flange or make an angle milled spacer?  If a slight change in angle would do it that may be an excellent and inexpensive way to go.  Anyone have any opinions on this?

I'm not too worried about clearancing for the Richmond ROD or modding the crossmember, thats a give with the ROD in any mopar installation.

Now that some tuning is available for the stock computer, I have been giving more thought to retaining the stock PCM but am still leaning toward using the MSD timing module and then a simple fuel stand alone system like a megasquirt or bigstuff3  I have a gen 6 DFI on hand and may just use that.

[gocirino]

GOCIRINO,
Thanks for posting that info about modifying the frame.   That's the kind of info that people considering this swap or just starting out need to know so they can prepare.  They need to know that it's not just a "slam / dunk" install.   Since I had moved my engine over 5/8", I actually had a good 1/4" clearance with the flange.   I wanted more, so I did exactly what you did.  Since that area is nearly above where the K member bolts to the frame, I was concerned about stress cracking that weld, so I'm working on a nice 1/8" reinforcement angle plate over that area.   I'll finish it off real nice so that it will just look like it could have come that way from the factory.

CudaSRT8 - here is a pic of the frame abeam the alternator, might be hard to see with the black frame against the black Alterkation.

John

[gocirino]

Here's a fitting that might come in handy if you want to convert your fuel rail 3/8" line to a -6 AN fitting. I haven't been
able to test for leaks yet until I pressurize the system.

[gocirino]

My apologies to "64 Dart in a Donut" -  I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. I guess I just get carried away with this stuff sometimes.
It would be real nice to have a 3G hemi category (hint...hint Bill)

[MomsR/T]

Thanks for the reply guys..

I'm not worried or questioning how things are gonna fit.... I already have an Alterkations frame and the 5.7 in mocked up sitting in the car. I know all about the actual conversion etc for the e-body.

My question is more about the ability for the block to withstand high HP.....in other words, if I'm building an 800+ HP motor with FI, is is really better to go with a 6.1 block, or just use the 5.7??.....all the internal components in either case will be forged etc and buit for FI application. So consider the internals a wash in comparing the 5.7 vs 6.1 in this case.....

Obviously 6.1 blocks are much harder to find, but if the 6.1 block has a better chance to survive high HP loads, I'll get one...

The book New HEMI Builders Guide says the bulkheads are different in the 5.7 vs 6.1, plus the oil "squirters" for the pistons....

Hard to answer........no one has made 800hp in a 3rd Gen and if they have, it wasn't driven around long enough for any of us to know.

I would have to ask................800 RWHP or 800 BHP?

The 5.7 is a thicker wall.............but smaller bore....................so I like the 5.7 for it's block strength

[MomsR/T]

DRJDVM95,

  

In terms of Crank, Rods, Pistons. 

The rods on the 6.1 are factory forged units.  As far as their reliability in high horsepower application, I believe they are the same rods used in the 392 525/540 Gen III hemi.  Good for 600 Hp, probably, good for 800 Hp?  Don't know?  At that level Carrillo rods would probably be cheap insurance.

The 5.7 rods are powdered metal and according to Hot Rod Magazine and Popular Hot Rodding, they are at the limit at about 500 flywheel horsepower. 

The 6.1 Hemi uses a forged crank while the 5.7 uses a cast crank.  I think the cast unit is probably good for 500-600 flywheel hp. but for more than that you'd want to used a forged unit.  In addition at that power level you would probably be using some form of stroker crank, either an offset ground or after market forged unit.  In either case a forging would be mandatory.

THis is not true...........

The 6.1 rod is EXACTLY the same rod BUT with larger cap bolts and a full floating pin..................thats it

The 5.7 and the 6.1 are both powdered rods.................

[MomsR/T]

One thing I would add to the SRT8 motor's having burned pistons is fuel issues. What I mean is they go,lean when you get of the pedal. So if you are under boost then let up hard the fuel is removed fast and boom. One fix I read about was to tap the fule rails and run a return to the tank. This will help with constant preasure to the injectors. I do not like the big stroker motors due to the short piston skirt. The top ring is in the piston pin area. I like the 6.1 stroke crank and custom rods with custom pistons. Now every one your turn to disagree with me. 

this is true BUT..................your duty cycle changes too so even if you do a return style, your duty cycle changes to lean out once it goes back to open loop.....................to fix this you need a COMPLETE reflash which will control this fuel saving program

[Joe-Dokes]

Gorcirino,

I don't pretend to speak for "64 Dart in a Donut" but in speaking for myself, I can say that your posts have given quite a bit of VERY SPECIFIC information that is much needed to accomplish the actual swap of a modern GEN 3 Hemi into an A-Body.

For example, I now know the following: With the trimming frame I can fit the automotive accessories into my 67 Dart.  Thus, I can have power rack and pinion steering.  I can have a factory A/C compressor and a factory high output alternator.  I now know were I need to trim my engine compartment in order to make the motor fit.  I now have pictures of it!  I know that the Alterktion will be well worth the money.  That the alterktion gives me more header clearance, situates the motor in the stock location.   

Not only did you not hijack the thread you made it better and more helpful. 

Regards

Joe Dokes

[MomsR/T]

I'm no engine guru, but here's my take on pistons for these Gen3s:

The 5.7 was built with the latest technology pistons to be a good performing, high production engine, aimed for general use for 100-150K miles.
The 6.1  "     "     "      "        "         "        "           "         higher performing,  "      "       "         "         "         "         "         "        "       "  .
Even the general production Mopar engines of the 60s would give you problems if you started racing them hard, especially with blowers and turbos.  The hot setup back then was to use a forged, TRW piston whose part number became almost iconic among engine builders and Mopar enthusiasts. 

Now we have NOS, blowers, turbos, etc. and OF COURSE we're going to have problems with stock pistons if we use power adders and drive them real hard.   There are pistons available out there now for these engines that are a little more like that old TRW piston with regard to rings, ring lands, distances, etc.   

I'm only going to be racing my car at a track once or twice a year and I'll probably only make maybe 6 passes each time.   I can't help but think my stock pistons and bottom end will be fine...   

My opinion is both pistons are junk for performance while using power-adders....................both pistons are cast and both have issues; however the 6.1 has a taller crown which better shrouds the top ring from heat.....................the 6.1 MAY have wider top gap as well but I'd have to look that up....................other than that, no difference other than bore.

[MomsR/T]

Gorcirino,

I don't pretend to speak for "64 Dart in a Donut" but in speaking for myself, I can say that your posts have given quite a bit of VERY SPECIFIC information that is much needed to accomplish the actual swap of a modern GEN 3 Hemi into an A-Body.

For example, I now know the following: With the trimming frame I can fit the automotive accessories into my 67 Dart.  Thus, I can have power rack and pinion steering.  I can have a factory A/C compressor and a factory high output alternator.  I now know were I need to trim my engine compartment in order to make the motor fit.  I now have pictures of it!  I know that the Alterktion will be well worth the money.  That the alterktion gives me more header clearance, situates the motor in the stock location.   

Not only did you not hijack the thread you made it better and more helpful. 

Regards

Joe Dokes

agreed, there is going to be 100 ways to skin a cat......................carb vs fuel injection, stand alone vs piggy back, NA vs power adder, stick vs auto, early trans vs, modern, alterKtion vs stock, truck cover vs car cover w/ modded frame, power accessories vs old skool, etc etc etc

I don't have all the answers either........................many of my thoughts come from experience working with these motors, building of these heads, mapping cams, dyno work, and our tuner guy who has tuned over 50 of these computers................

Glad to know this has some motion in it..................the more people interested in it the more aftermarket will support it. 

[gocirino]

Gorcirino,

I don't pretend to speak for "64 Dart in a Donut" but in speaking for myself, I can say that your posts have given quite a bit of VERY SPECIFIC information that is much needed to accomplish the actual swap of a modern GEN 3 Hemi into an A-Body.

For example, I now know the following: With the trimming frame I can fit the automotive accessories into my 67 Dart.  Thus, I can have power rack and pinion steering.  I can have a factory A/C compressor and a factory high output alternator.  I now know were I need to trim my engine compartment in order to make the motor fit.  I now have pictures of it!  I know that the Alterktion will be well worth the money.  That the alterktion gives me more header clearance, situates the motor in the stock location.   

Not only did you not hijack the thread you made it better and more helpful. 

Regards

Joe Dokes

Thanks Joe.... I have some other things I have that I hope to share with all and I am certain others like yourself will contribute more also. I realize I don't
have all the answers and there are a hundred different ways to do this... I hope everyone can chime in on their projects. A thousands heads are better than one!!

On another note, today I was looking at that beautiful motor in the engine compartment and couldn't help noticing how ugly the window wiper motor is sticking its ugly
head out. I couldn't take it anymore and removed it and in its place is a peice of 1/4" 5052 aluminum plate I fabbed.
 But more importantly I took my spare
wiper motor from an ST8 Charger and retrofitted it under the dash so I still have working wipers. The retrofit was real easy to do and worth the effort. I'll try to post pix on that one soon.

I'd like to post electrical and fuel sometime too.

Regards,
John

[Ruster]

I'd be real interested in seeing how to install an interior wiper motor.  Could you get it to work with the new controls so you have the delay alos?  My Cuda is an original AC car so I'd eventually like to get the air working.  Does the new hemi compressor work with the old system or are they of a different type ie orface tube vs expansion valve that adjusts during operation.  I know some systems are designed so that the compressor runs all the time unless the charge is low or something else is wrong while some systems operate the clutch in normal operation.  So basiclly can you use the new compressor with the old system?

Oh also, the 6.1 rods are powdered metal but are heavier in design than the 5.7 rods and are a completely different rod.  Kind of like the difference between a 318 rod and a 340 rod.  There not the same rod with bigger bolts and floating pins.

[MomsR/T]

i'll take pictures of both rods and with calipers to show any differences that I can see...............thus far we haven't seen anything different (but anything is possible right?)

Same small end, same big end, same width, same material..................only thing a visual inspection gave us was cap bolt size and bushed small end.

As for the interior wiper motor.....................now thats over the top................kudos to you.

[gocirino]

I'd be real interested in seeing how to install an interior wiper motor.  Could you get it to work with the new controls so you have the delay alos?  My Cuda is an original AC car so I'd eventually like to get the air working.  Does the new hemi compressor work with the old system or are they of a different type ie orface tube vs expansion valve that adjusts during operation.  I know some systems are designed so that the compressor runs all the time unless the charge is low or something else is wrong while some systems operate the clutch in normal operation.  So basiclly can you use the new compressor with the old system?

Oh also, the 6.1 rods are powdered metal but are heavier in design than the 5.7 rods and are a completely different rod.  Kind of like the difference between a 318 rod and a 340 rod.  There not the same rod with bigger bolts and floating pins.

Ruster and company.... I started a new thread for 3G hemi/A-Body stuff under engine category...

thanks..

[Ruster]

i'll take pictures of both rods and with calipers to show any differences that I can see...............thus far we haven't seen anything different (but anything is possible right?)

Same small end, same big end, same width, same material..................only thing a visual inspection gave us was cap bolt size and bushed small end.

As for the interior wiper motor.....................now thats over the top................kudos to you.

From what I can tell the cap has a different webbing the small end is bigger on the 6.1 and the webbing on the beam is thicker.  A 6.1 rod weighs about 653 grams and the 5.7 is approximately 605 grams.  The 5.7 uses a 0.945 LS1 pin size and the 6.1 uses the small block mopar 0.984 pin size.  Those are the obvious differences.

[az426hemi]

Has anyone actually tried to fit one of these into an early a body?

Thanks,
Mike

[CudaSRT8]

Bill Reilly has an AlterKtion for putting the Gen3 in an early A.   He used the truck version of front cover.   Don't know where you could get any pre-made engine mounts to bolt it to an early A K-member.   Don't think anyone makes them.   I chatted with someone here a while back who wants to do this swap and we measured frame differences.   His inside dimension, rail to rail was 3 inches narrower than my '69 A body.    It's already a VERY tight fit putting the Gen3 in a later A.    I couldn't imagine shoehorning it into and early A.   Well, maybe if you use the AlterK, but otherwise, "good luck with that, let me know how it turns out"   
Here's my 6.1 in a '69 Cuda...