3rd. Generation Hemi/A-Body Stuff

[gocirino]

Ok.....I assume the MP computer and harness would require the pedal assembly??

Mopar would require the pedal assembly and I believe Motec (big Bucks) does also.

I have the complete assembly and computer if you are interested.

[gocirino]

Also, Northern has a radiator you can get from Dave Weber at Modern Muscle (http://www.henrycorods.com) complete w/electric fan and relay setup and shipping  for a 6.1 for under $700. No brackets, I had to weld some on myself but no big deal to do.

FYI;These are the hoses to put it all together if you like;


Gates heater hoses
28466
28467
28468
 
Gates Radiator hoses
22302
22039

[rjsjea]

Nice....thanks gocirino.   Good info.  Anyone bought anything from Street and performance (S&P)  They can do a "turn-key" engine package for the 6.1.  Dont price though.


Any other ideas on who to buy a complete turn-key 6.1 from, (engine,harness,ecu,throttle setup,pulley,alt,ac compressor,pwr steering assembly) ??   

[gocirino]

Nice....thanks gocirino.   Good info.  Anyone bought anything from Street and performance (S&P)  They can do a "turn-key" engine package for the 6.1.  Dont price though.


 Any other ideas on who to buy a complete turn-key 6.1 from, (engine,harness,ecu,throttle setup,pulley,alt,ac compressor,pwr steering assembly) ??   

Without trying to sound like a commercial for this guy, Dave Weber at Modern Muscle (http://www.henrycorods.com) has, I think at last count, four 6.1's ready to roll
with or without the AEM setup. As I mentioned previously,  met him last year at the Carlisle Mopar 3G hemi seminar. Good honest guy, like cudasrt8 said, "I'm tired of dealing with
people with an attitude."
Dave is down to earth and very honest. I order from him frequently and says just mail me a check when you get a chance! If you want to ask him about the motors, try him at work:
276.666.1934... tell him I said hi....

John


"Plan "B" Blown 426 Hemi!

[rjsjea]

I will give him a call.....thanks

Rob

"plan B" looks rather menacing

[CudaSRT8]

I am using the 5-45rfe (truck 5 speed auto). I made my trans mount. It is bolted to the carmin the factory place. I made it work using the truck mounting plate holes.

Cary, I guess that would s'plain it.  Although it may be close, the dimensions of that trans and it's mounting points are probably just different enough from a Torque Flite that it sits a little different.   However, I'll bet the TTIs (designed by Bill) will fit.  The number 8 tube comes too close to the brake line T on the frame, so it needs to be moved, but otherwise, I'll bet they'll fit.  We could compare driver side vc to fenderwell dimensions if you'd like.  Did you already try the TTIs?

[CudaSRT8]

With the new 6.1 crate motors ,do you have to get a pedal assembly........(drive by wire)...or are there options to have a cable throttle assembly to make it work in an older car??

You can use the drive by wire if you use a stock computer.  There's two types of pedal assemblies you can use.  The Ram from '02 til (about) '04 uses a pedal with cable that goes to an electrical box (I'll call it a reostat for lack of knowing what it's really called).  The box sends a signal to the computer, which sends a signal to the throttle body.   

In (about) '05 they changed the pedal assembly to be all encompassing.  Has the (reostat?) built into the pedal assembly.  No cable this way, just the wire.

Mopar Performance has come out with the nicest cable type throttle body I've seen.   It fits the 6.1 intake like it was made for it (I'm pretty sure IT WAS!).  Although it's made by BBK (says right on the throttle plate), it's different than their generic one they have available.   All the others I've seen out there just look like they've been modified to work ('cause they were).  The MP piece is competatively priced.   

Also, the MP wiring harness and computer are set up for the cable type throttle body.   I shopped around and found the MP stuff to be competatively priced for what you get.   I bought the MP stuff.

Personally, I wanted the cable throttle body for my car.   My Ram pickup, my Grand Chickeree and many of my cop cars are throttle by wire.   It's O.K. for daily drivers, but there's hesitations and other idiosyncracies (sp?) I don't like with throttle by wire.   I want a more EXACT feel with the throttle body that you get with linkage or cable.   Just my personal opinion and preference on that topic...

[rjsjea]

I had heard the "drive by wire" is a little hesitant....and wanted to go with a throttle cable.  I have read the MP stuff is good for totally stock motor.

  I was wanting to maybe swap the cam for a little power/sound.....I need to call Modern Muscle, Frank Racing or Street&Performance to get things straight before I go buying stuff.  After that I am sure I will be completely confused     (they all will have diff ideas).........appreciate the input OJ, and John


Rob

[DavidBrenner]

pages 5 upper right hand corner of the march 08 Mopar Muscle. Looks like XV has a "get it running" kit for as cheap as I've ever seen. $1250 

[CudaSRT8]

Wow, $1,250 sounds pretty cheap... wonder what it includes.   

Rob, yeah, I'm sure you're going to get all kinds of opinions because there ARE a lot of ways to accomplish getting one to run.   Just depends on your ultimate goal.     Let me give a few more details of MY research before I bought.   

My MP, 5.7 crate motor (going up for sale soon) came with cable operated 4bbl throttle body;  complete, ready to go harness;  and a "next generation" computer that pretty much just looks like a factory computer.   I think it will tolerate SOME more cam, as so will my Ram truck.  From there, I think I would have been subject to a re-flash by any of these guys and companies that have surfaced that do re-flashes.   

For my 6.1, I went with MP.   I got the harness for $650, when S&P and Modern Muscle both quoted $1,000 .   The MP throttle body is cable and made by BBK, and the base of it fits the intake like it was made for it.   I think Modern Muscle uses a FAST throttle body (at least when I was shopping) and it's modified to fit.   I THINK S&P usually uses "throttle by wire" for their conversions and offer re-flashed, stock computers.   Modern Muscle (when I was shopping) was offering an AEM computer and Dave said he had a couple of bugs to work out (at that time).   

When you shop around, the myriad of combinations and prices can be pretty perplexing.   That's why when the MP stuff hit the market, I jumped on it.  I trust they've done their homework.    The computer is by AEM and is fully programmable.   Just for reference, the prices I paid were:

TB was $450
Harness was $650
Computer was $2,200
By the way, this is the same stuff that comes with the new "392" crate motor.

I agree that both Dave at MM and Mark at S&P are both "stand up" guys.   I just decided I wanted the genuine Mopar (labelled    ) stuff, especially since it was competatively priced for what it is... 

[USCG Charger]

I had heard the "drive by wire" is a little hesitant....and wanted to go with a throttle cable.  I have read the MP stuff is good for totally stock motor.

  I was wanting to maybe swap the cam for a little power/sound.....I need to call Modern Muscle, Frank Racing or Street&Performance to get things straight before I go buying stuff.  After that I am sure I will be completely confused     (they all will have diff ideas).........appreciate the input OJ, and John


Rob

Drive by wire is far from hesitant....there are lots of camand head simple bolt on's that can be done for a quick upgrade... Give Lee at FRi or Stu from the hemi shop a call.

Jason

[MomsR/T]

the XV stuff that's included is the manifold, computer, and wiring harness......................you provide your own coils and carb

this is the "inexpensive" route I started discussing when we started all of this..............we offer such a kit and is the one we're using on our car(s)

[DavidBrenner]

From the picture it shows the carb IS included.

[jeffneal66]

You have to read all of the discriptions.  The $1200+ kit is without the carb and no MSD programming.  You supply the carb and have the MSD programmed.  For about $200 more you get the MSD with programming complete and loaded, but still no carb.  The carb is about another $400.

[Joe-Dokes]

Thanks for the pix cudaSRT8,  they are a big help.  I think your radiator looks great, sorry to hear about the grief.  As far as moving the engine over and notching the frame rail, thanks for the very detailed pictures.  I new from many posts that the truck engine was an easier install, though I honestly feel that the automotive (whether 6.1 or 5.7) looks a lot cleaner. 

One question I have about the various steering columns is will they still collapse in case of a catastrophic front end collision? 


Thanks

Joe Dokes

[CudaSRT8]

Joe Dokes,
I think I've seen that Flaming River and/or IDIDIT makes a collapsing column now.  However, I think our application would be too short to be able to use it.   I did give the collapsability issue some thought and concern.  Since I'm using (2) u-joints in my steering system, I'm counting on the system "folding" up should I be involved in an accident.  Hopefully, I'll never experience how that works out...   

[Joe-Dokes]

I hope I'm never in a catastrophic front end collision either. 

From the excellent pictures that you took, it appears as though in a front end collision the upper U-joint would allow the shaft to pivot down instead of up.  Further according to Flaming River's website the shaft is made from aluminum which is strong enough to steer the car but weak enough to bend or break in a collision.

You are also correct that the they do sell a column that is collapsable, but it is a bit thicker and may not provide the clearance necessary for the headers.

Thanks for the reply,

Joe Dokes

[CudaSRT8]

Gocirino,
I was looking at your Charger wiper motor conversion and realized my old wiper motor is the ONLY thing that I had planned to retain from the era of my car.   EVERYTHING is late model OEM or aftermarket.   I was going to use a restored '69 wiper motor.   I think I want to go with a late model wiper motor now.  The concept of your conversion is pretty slick and at the very least, I will weld up the hole and smooth it out to look like there wasn't anything there.   HOWEVER, I've seen this done before and the big "indentation" there looks like something is missing (because it is?).  The new Charger wiper motor sititng in place of the stock '69 unit would actually go perfect with the rest of the concept of my car.  It's MUCH smaller, quieter and easily available over the parts counter.   

O.K., with that all said, if I built a bracket similar to what you built and mounted it to the TOPSIDE of where you mounted it and bolted the motor to it, would the motor arm reach down INSIDE far enough to go ahead and weld the arms up like you did?   Of course, I'd have to remove the factory studs and make the hole smaller.   On top, I'd design, fabricate and install it to pretty much look like the factory put it there.  What do you think, would it reach down inside enough?  Many thanks in advance on this...     

[rjsjea]

I know I was not asked but since you are asking Cudasrt8-OJ, here is how I put the wiper motor under the dash.  A little different that gocirino, it's mounted to a 1" bar from the cage.  Its from a Ford Ranger of all things....it's small and we had one on hand. But it works, using the stock arms, cut one end off, to adapt it to  the new motor.  I completely smoothed the firewall, including the pinch weld. So the wiper motor had to go too.  The m/c, clutch m/c, wiper motor and vintage air, steering column unit is mounted with the roll cage bar.  I had help with this fabrication part.....it went way above me at this point   

After looking into the 6.1 swap, I gotta mount a computer, fuse panel and trans controller under there now...... , should be fun

[gocirino]

As you can see there are many ways to do this. I like your idea of the new motor in the stock location... as well as the idea of hiding it all together. rjsjea also had a great idea too. As far as having enough motor to reach inside
the firewall, I think you are going to have to experiment with it a bit. You might even be able to recess it some in the stock location. There is a lot of latitude in the geometry to make the wipers work. You can also
do some re-engineering of the arm that attaches to the wiper motor drive shaft. I only had to bend mine a few degrees to keep from making a Cuisinart under the dash. I just kept on test fitting until I made it work.
Especially if you have the heater box or in my case three computers mounted near the same location as the wiper system.

Something else I did, I took the complete wiper mechanism and replaced most of the pivot points with the newer tech hardware from the Charger. I think some of the old hardware was tired and couldn't handle the new motor power. Just took a little cutting and Tig welding. I've run the new setup for about a half hour now and still can't believe how quiet and modern sounding it is.

Bottom line for me is that it's worth the small hassle to get it to work.

Good Luck!

[jeffneal66]

rjsjea, Do you have more pictures of your roll bar?  I would like to put an unobtrusive roll bar in my '68 Barracuda to add some safety and stiffen the chassis.  Your's looks very much like what I am picturing in my mind.  Thanks.

[rjsjea]

Jeffneal66.

Not to take away from the 3rd gen stuff but here ya go.....I am takin out the bar behind the seats, just tacked in anyway right now.  I want a backseat....and I havent got the trans yet, but the tunnel will be changed

[jeffneal66]

Yea, sorry for the deviation form the G3 stuff, that is why I am following the post.  Thanks for the pic's.  Looks great, I also want a back seat for the kids, I don't want to make it difficult to get in and out of the car, and don't want it to be a safety hazard for the occupants either.

[rjsjea]

Anyone know if a Vintage air A/c system will work with the A/c compressor on the 6.1??  Also, if the power rack on the AlterK will work with the power steering pump on the same 6.1??  I talked with Dave Weber {modern muscle} and he was not sure.......



Rob

[DavidBrenner]

I heard that someone checked with Classic Auto Air and apprently yes it will work, with the Classic Air. From what I've heard the Vintage is not as good as the Classic and Classic has may more direct fit systems than Vintage, at least in the Mopar department.
Steering I don't know.

[rjsjea]

Vintage is a very good product.......you are right about mounting the unit tho!!!  I already have the vintage unit and mounted the condensor under the dash, so Im keeping it.   

[Bakaruda]

I used Hot Rod air.

[USCG Charger]

I use roll my windows down air!

[DavidBrenner]

Vintage is a very good product.......you are right about mounting the unit tho!!!  I already have the vintage unit and mounted the condensor under the dash, so Im keeping it.   

Oh boy. Vintage wants you to mount the CONDENSER under the dash? Its going to get hot in there. 

[CudaSRT8]

Anyone know if a Vintage air A/c system will work with the A/c compressor on the 6.1??  Also, if the power rack on the AlterK will work with the power steering pump on the same 6.1??  I talked with Dave Weber {modern muscle} and he was not sure.......

Rob

Rob,
Yes, the Vintage, Classic and Hot Rod AC systems will work with the compressor on both the 5.7 and 6.1.  When I was shopping for AC, I found that although Vintage had direct fit kits for the B and E bodies, they didn't have one yet for the A bodies (hey, we get NO respect).  Classic Auto Air does have one for the A bodies.   I bought their whole kit, but ended up sending the front half (everything in front of the firewall) back for a credit. 

The kit is designed for a Mopar V8 with the compressor up on top of the engine.  It actually is a very nice kit.  It would have worked nicely with the truck front cover/accessories on the Hemi, but not so well with the car front cover (AC pump way low on the driver side).   I decided to custom design/build the front half of my system.  I found a source for an A body condensor;  I'm using the stock, OEM 6.1 compressor;  and I'm using a stock, OEM drier from a middle 90's Dodge (the same one used in the kit).   All my lines will be made up custom (not very expensive) as a combination of hard lines and hoses.   You'll need some special compressor/line manifolds (from Doc's Blocks) to marry the new pump to the older style hose fittings.   If there's enough interest with you guys, I can look up my invoices and make a special post of suppliers, part numbers and costs.

As for the power steering issue, I didn't do a whole lot of research on this.   The few people I asked, didn't know.  Soooooo, since I'm only getting OLDER, I definately wanted POWER steering and just used a Heidt's variable adjusting valve from Reilly Motor Sports.   This will allow me to trim the assist (pressure) down for now and turn it up a bit as I get older (well, at least that's my theory).   I'll do further research once the car is done so I know how much I can crank up the assist.  Although my PS lines are already done, I just thought of how convenient it would be to put an oil pressure guage in the line.   

If you find out anything on this in the meantime, please let the rest of us know...