3rd. Generation Hemi/A-Body Stuff

[Dave Weber of Modern Muscle]

Hey, would like to bring you up to date on some of  what is out there,  if I could.  In response to an earlier post I am supplying a link to a picture of the throttle body supplied by MM                                                http://hcrods.com/images/TB_-_50.jpg 
 It is a modified  80mm BBK with throttle cable bracket and return spring. Just add the Lokar cable and you're ready to roll. The MP throttle body without bracketry is also a good option.  I also heard mention of some tuning issues. I would advise anyone using the stand alone systems (AEM, FAST, MP[AEM]), to prepare for some time on the lap top. Although the tune up we provide has worked well for most customers, there is always the chance for adjustments to be made for many reasons (engine modifications, driving style, cold air in-let confirguration, exhaust system, etc.). There are many different ways to configure a hemi install. What needs to be considered are: engine modifications (now or in the future), trans configuration, budget, driving preference (DBW lag), availability of knowledgeable tuning people in your locale (AEM, FAST, MP[AEM]). It's great to see people sharing info about the new HEMI to prevent being taken advantage of by the less than scrupulous people that usually accompanies any new market.
                                                                                                                                                                                                   

[gocirino]

Dave,

Thanks for commenting on the throttle body. I am posting a pic of it.

John

[rjsjea]

that looks pretty good gocriino.........I like the look of the throttle body

[CudaSRT8]

Dave Weber,
So glad to see you here!  I talked with you several years ago when I first started my 6.1 install.    We have this thread going here to share ideas and experiences of doing the Gen3 conversion in an A-body.  Also, to help those who are contemplating the conversion.  I hope you stick around, as your input would be invaluable as someone who's actually PERFORMED these installs and KNOWS what he's talking about from actual experience.  Your white Challenger and Jason's Cuda are undoubtably THE NICEST Gen3 Hemi conversion cars out there.   Absolutely awesome cars and unsurpassed by any of the others I've seen out there, and I've seen a lot of them ! 

I have most of my "physical install" specifics worked out except for the throttle body bracketry and cable.   

Was wondering:  Your Challenger has a throttle body with the cable on the pass. side.  I believe this is a FAST throttle body?  The throttle body you offer on the post above has the cable on the driver side (a modified BBK throttlebody?)   I ended up with all Mopar Performance stuff.   The throttle body is by BBK.   Do you sell bracketry that fits this?

Also, when we talked, you said there were some bugs you needed to work out of the AEM computer.   Were you able to accomplish this?  I ended up with the Mopar Performance unit (AEM).  Have you heard whether MP and AEM have any bugs that I will be experiencing when I get to the point of my car ACTUALLY RUNNING? 

By the way, congratulations on all the other acknowledgement you've been getting on your white Challenger build (Mopar@SEMA, several magazines, etc).  I just picked up the latest "Muscle Car" with your Chally on the front cover.   

Oh, one last question.  A couple of guys at work have been asking me just how this car of mine is going to perform with the AlterK (ride and handling) and the 6.1 w/TKO.   What can you tell us about this.   How do you like the handling and performance of your Challenger as opposed to a stock style suspension with an old school HP engine?   Please do tell, and welcome to the site...




   

[Dave Weber of Modern Muscle]

Thanks for the kind words. You are right about the Challenger TB on the pass. side, but it is a 85mm Nitrous Extreme (discontinued) not a Fast 90mm. The 85mm fits the extrude honed intake perfectly and is about all your going to put on one without a tapered adapter. Like any first effort, the second or third time around always gets better. The new TB is a 80mm for one of those 5.0L  foreign jobs. I could not stand the cable on the pass. side so I made a change the white car just never got it. I have not had a MP TB in my hands yet, so I am not sure on the bracketry but, I would be willing to try. There is a person I know in California that used a MP system and he still had to tune on the car.  Also,  I am not sure if the MP comes with O2s or not but, I would add them. What little driving I have done with the Challenger has been a blast. I began to take the performance and handling for granted and did not realize what a difference there was, till I drove some old iron the other day. You won't be disappointed. One other thing, don't ask me me about the MPG, when I do drive, it is usually on the mat. I will talk to the guy in CA and see if he will participate to give us further information.          Thanks Dave

[rjsjea]

Dave, do you know if the power rack with the AlterK will work with the power steering pump on the 6.1??



Rob

[gocirino]

Dave, do you know if the power rack with the AlterK will work with the power steering pump on the 6.1??



Rob

Works on mine!

[DarrenM]

Hi guys, I'm new to this site.  I'm hoping to be able to lend a hand (eventually) to the community on my install experience;  for now, i'm reading all I can.  I'm buying a 6.1 tomorrow for my project.  I currently own a 73 Barracuda, and am seriously looking for a rust free Duster.

I have a few questions for the guys in the know - regarding the electronics.  FAST vs. Mopar (AEM).  I'm curious if anyone (Dave Weber?) has input on which is the "better" controller (ease of use, programming, expansion).  I hear the FAST system has a baseline 6.1 hemi specific program to get you running. I'm assuming the Mopar controller has programming by Chrysler (or by AEM through Chrysler)?  Does anyone have knowledge of either or both controllers to add pros/cons to this topic?  I would rather have the ability to modify the programming if needed, rather than have a re-flash when I get a cam, or head work etc, but have a reliable stock engine configuration (ie no engine mods) program for the interim.

Second topic is regarding the transmission choice.  I have a 904 available.  Does anyone have knowledge about what a 904 needs to live behind 425 HP?  Or, what car line does a Tremec TKO-500 or 600 come in to be able to look for a used transmission in a recycling facility?

Thanks for all the help I've already received !
Darren

[CudaSRT8]

Darren,
After shopping around for quite a while and getting some pretty high cost quotes, I waited and ended up going with all MP stuff:  controller, cable throttle body and harness.   I found the more shopping I did and people I talked to just confused the matter, so I went with the stuff arranged by good ol' Ma Mopar. 

My MP computer (AEM) info SAYS that it's programmed to run and drive fine the way it is configured.   But it's fully programmable for finer tuning and future upgrades.   You get a CD with it that has a LOT of programs, info, manuals, etc.   The throttle body is cable driven.   Nice piece and although its made by BBK, it's unlike the standard throttle bodies available from BBK.   I THINK that BBK made this exclusively for the 6.1 manifold because it fits the contour of the manifold mounting area like it was made for it.   I'll be posting some pics of it as soon as I can.

I think Dave Weber is the one who can tell us about the differences between the AEM and FAST controllers.   Dave? 

As for the Tremecs, I'm not sure whether the current TKO500 and 600s are available in production vehicles or not.   I think they may just sell them for aftermarket purposes, but I'm not sure.    I just bought a TKO600 for my cuda, and it took a major reconfiguration to the tunnel and upper cross member to make it fit.   The Keisler kits takes just a little bit of modification, because they modify the transmission itself so it will fit better.

There's plenty of people here who have first hand knowledge and experience of this stuff, so hang around and I'm sure they'll contribute what they can...

[Dave Weber of Modern Muscle]

FAST vs AEM MP or MM

FAST - 90mm TB with a funnel adapter
AEM MP or MM - a BBK made to fit

AEM MP, AEM MM, FAST - All have good start up tune ups. But, all need future tuning, even MP. I contacted my friend in CA and he is either going to join the forum or email me his experience with the MP system and I will post. I do know that he has spent time tuning and is still not completely done.

AEM MP or MM - less components than FAST

Programing - I believe the FAST to be easier but if you can manage one you can figure out others.

Drive By Wire - poor driving characteristics (personal preference) cost of flashes if you play with your engine (cam, heads, strkers etc)

I believe Bill also says the 6.1 PS pump is ok. If you don,t like it you can allways throttle it back.

[DarrenM]

I'm considering the XV (FAST), a Mopar kit, or the 301013 FAST kit.  I haven't been able to track down the differences between XV's FAST system vs. the kit, but likely it's just in programming and TB/manifold options.  Mopar is a good choice, as I'd hope they did power and reliability checks on their programs.  Haven't really heard though.  FAST?  No idea what they do!

XV does dyno runs on their tuning, according to the website.  I'd really like to run the 6.1 intake, though, as it's the most impressive "looking" item on that engine.  And that's always part of the build, right?  XV assumes you run their central TB and their intake. 

Mopar's programmable system : from moparts racing
5153528    Programmable EMS — EFI Applications    2159.00
Harness:  right around $450 for the 392 cu.in. (no price for the 6.1 harness) 
TB:  5153689   Throttle Body 392 Hemi Crate Engine    495.00

FAST: from Mopar Rich over at Moparts.org
Each of the two HEMI kits (5.7 and 6.1) come with specific HEMI programs that are ready to go assuming the engines use stock heads and cam. There may be some touch-up necessary for cold start or idle TPS position, but cruise and WOT are very close. The kits include an LSX style mechanical TB and the XIM for COP support.
Here is the feedback direct from FAST:
*************
* The XFI/XIM kits are compatible with all the Chrysler factory sensors.
* Since Fly-By-Wire throttle control is not supported, the kits come with an LSX TB and an adapter.
* These kits include HEMI calibration tables, developed by FAST, that are very close for a stock application. These programs are not part of the typical XFI set that are included with a normal XFI. The 5.7/6.1 programs are unique.
* The kits include the XIM for Coil-On-Plug support.
* The kits are compatible with the factory IAC.
* The XFI supports generic TCC lockup.
************

I sell the 301012 kit for the 5.7 HEMI for $3090
I sell the 301013 kit for the 6.1 HEMI for $3195

Sorry for cross posting - this might help someone?

XV's
11-3312 Complete FAST fully programmable EFI engine management system for XV Crate
Motors . Includes XV custom tune for your crate motor. This item can only be
ordered with an XV Crate Motor.  $3025  got this from them via email (haven't really looked for a link on their website)
http://www.xvmotorsports.com/media/Crate_Motor_Product_Sheet.pdf
You still need the intake and TB

Anyway, as you can see, they're all about the same price...........You need to make the educated decision based on features and ease of use/quality etc etc.

Looking forward to Dave Weber's opinions as well as his contacts'.......

Thanks

Darren,
After shopping around for quite a while and getting some pretty high cost quotes, I waited and ended up going with all MP stuff:  controller, cable throttle body and harness.   I found the more shopping I did and people I talked to just confused the matter, so I went with the stuff arranged by good ol' Ma Mopar. 

My MP computer (AEM) info SAYS that it's programmed to run and drive fine the way it is configured.   But it's fully programmable for finer tuning and future upgrades.   You get a CD with it that has a LOT of programs, info, manuals, etc.   The throttle body is cable driven.   Nice piece and although its made by BBK, it's unlike the standard throttle bodies available from BBK.   I THINK that BBK made this exclusively for the 6.1 manifold because it fits the contour of the manifold mounting area like it was made for it.   I'll be posting some pics of it as soon as I can.

I think Dave Weber is the one who can tell us about the differences between the AEM and FAST controllers.   Dave? 

As for the Tremecs, I'm not sure whether the current TKO500 and 600s are available in production vehicles or not.   I think they may just sell them for aftermarket purposes, but I'm not sure.    I just bought a TKO600 for my cuda, and it took a major reconfiguration to the tunnel and upper cross member to make it fit.   The Keisler kits takes just a little bit of modification, because they modify the transmission itself so it will fit better.

There's plenty of people here who have first hand knowledge and experience of this stuff, so hang around and I'm sure they'll contribute what they can...

[DarrenM]

Thanks Dave. 
Any idea what FAST does to verify that programming?

FAST vs AEM MP or MM

FAST - 90mm TB with a funnel adapter
AEM MP or MM - a BBK made to fit

AEM MP, AEM MM, FAST - All have good start up tune ups. But, all need future tuning, even MP. I contacted my friend in CA and he is either going to join the forum or email me his experience with the MP system and I will post. I do know that he has spent time tuning and is still not completely done.

AEM MP or MM - less components than FAST

Programing - I believe the FAST to be easier but if you can manage one you can figure out others.

Drive By Wire - poor driving characteristics (personal preference) cost of flashes if you play with your engine (cam, heads, strkers etc)

I believe Bill also says the 6.1 PS pump is ok. If you don,t like it you can allways throttle it back.

[Dave Weber of Modern Muscle]

It is my opinion that all the systems will need some form of tuning and adjustment. If people are painting a perfect picture beware. Your choice is not only price but service and knowledge of product. There is a lot of hard sell out there right now with no support. None of the suppliers have the road time you think, but are relying on the end user to work it out. Of coarse none will admit to this because they want to make the sale. I get a little tired of hearing about my tuning problems when I am willing to tell it like it is. The stand alones are not plug and play. Please make sure you or someone in your area is willing to work with the FAST or AEM software and has tuning capabilities before you purchase.

                                                                                              Dave

[CudaSRT8]

Dave,
Hang in there and keep telling the truth.   Those "hard sellers" can usually sucker SOME buyers, but they are often obvious to many of us.   You come across as a "stand up" guy with integrity.  Maintain your integrity.  The truth shall prevail.   By the way, I'm interested in purchasing some stuff.  Can I contact you through your website?
O.J.

[Dave Weber of Modern Muscle]

Yes I can be contacted through the site. Don't worry about me changing the way I do business. I do realize that with the cost of doing one of these projects everybody needs to shop. The thing is that people need to budget and prepare for possible further expense and time. No matter what they are told.

                                            Thanks Dave

[rjsjea]

OJ, gocirino or anyone else have pics of the TTI's with the 6.1 from underneath or ground level pic?  Wanna see what kind of ground clearance they got..........my car is low and dont wanna destroy a $750 header!! 

                                                                                               ---- Rob

[CudaSRT8]

Rob,
I don't have any pictures of them right now, but that's do-able in a week or two.   I'm in transition with mock-up engines at the moment.   I CAN tell you that the bottom of the stock, hemi aluminum bellhousing I was GOING to use sat lower than the headers.   Also, I WAS (still may) going to use the 5.7 truck pan on my 6.1.   The bottom most part of the sump where the drain plug is sat even a little bit lower than the bell.  I now have the MP scattershield and the bottom of it is now lower than the pan sump by just a tad bit. 

The TTI's sit up fairly decent.    What is the measurement from the bottom of your AlterK crossmember to the ground.  When I put my TTIs back on, I'll put my car on the ground and set it at that height and take measurements and a couple of pics for you if someone can't help you in the meantime...

[rjsjea]

Rob,
I don't have any pictures of them right now, but that's do-able in a week or two.   I'm in transition with mock-up engines at the moment.   I CAN tell you that the bottom of the stock, hemi aluminum bellhousing I was GOING to use sat lower than the headers.   Also, I WAS (still may) going to use the 5.7 truck pan on my 6.1.   The bottom most part of the sump where the drain plug is sat even a little bit lower than the bell.  I now have the MP scattershield and the bottom of it is now lower than the pan sump by just a tad bit. 

The TTI's sit up fairly decent.    What is the measurement from the bottom of your AlterK crossmember to the ground.  When I put my TTIs back on, I'll put my car on the ground and set it at that height and take measurements and a couple of pics for you if someone can't help you in the meantime...

5 1/2" inches to the ground is where I want to set it at......front wheels are gonna be 18" with a 35/40 series tire (24.9"-25.7" or so)  I am figuring on the costs of things and custom headers vs. TTI's came up.  I am gonna cut the trans hump/lower firewall out anyway for the trans, so I may try and move the motor up an inch or two.   Hood clearance good???  I can do the tunnel/alterK modifications, but havent built headers before         thanks OJ           --Rob

[CudaSRT8]

Rob,
There was a point when I had my car on the ground and the crossmember was at 4 1/2 inches.   I was pretty concerned about the oil pan, but from what I remember, the headers were of no concern.  From what I remember, the headers were higher than the crossmember.   I'll check all that when the engine/headers are back in.   

I bought my TTIs without coating so I could go in/out at will (during mock-up) without worrying about scratching up the coating.  They were 500ish.  They are a really nice set of headers.  I can't see the need to go custom...

[gocirino]

OJ, gocirino or anyone else have pics of the TTI's with the 6.1 from underneath or ground level pic?  Wanna see what kind of ground clearance they got..........my car is low and dont wanna destroy a $750 header!! 

                                                                                               ---- Rob

My car is on the lift with the engine in it. I'll shoot some pix  and see if they show you what your looking for.

I might even be able to start it by the end of the week ....maybe. Major fingers crossed!!

[Dave Weber of Modern Muscle]

With a little work can you make the stock Manifolds work on a Abody?

[rjsjea]

With a little work can you make the stock Manifolds work on a Abody?

Thanks Dave,..........I just like the look/sound of a header. 

                                                       --Rob

[CudaSRT8]

Dave,
As I'm sure you know, the A's are quite a bit narrower than the E's.   I have some stock LX 6.1 manifolds that I tried on my car (just to see; I also like headers better) and they don't fit on the pass. side (into the frame rail) and although they'll go in on the driver side, cause a major obstacle with the steering column.   One of the guys here also doing an A cuda is going to try milling the (pretty thick) flange at an angle to see if he can make them fit. 

I looked at an SRT8 Grand Chickeree and the manifolds are tucked in MUCH tighter than on the LXs.  I think they would definately fit on the pass. side and MAY make the difference on the driver side.   Oh, but I'm talking about using an AlterK;  all bets are off if trying to use the stock K / torsion bars...

[Dave Weber of Modern Muscle]

I was thinking along the lines of angle milling the flange. I hope he keeps us posted as to his progress. As for the drivers side, I remounted my rack and have some pretty creative steering joint work. Not as straight forward as headers even on a E body. From a showing, and ground clearance stand point, I wanted the manifolds.
                                  thanks Dave

[boden]

With a little work can you make the stock Manifolds work on a Abody?

Hot Rod used Jeep Grand Cherokee manifolds when they installed a 5.7 in a duster.

[Dave Weber of Modern Muscle]

Thanks for the info. Is there any pictures available of the Jeep manifolds?

[CudaSRT8]

Yeah, I think the instructions that come with the MP 5.7 crate motors mention the 5.7 Jeep manifolds as good potential for a swap.   I have one of those engines and can look it up in the instructions, even though I'm not an "instructions" kinda guy   

I get my OEM parts for 10% over dealer "published" cost and the LX 6.1 manifolds (a few years ago) were like $125 each.   The Jeep 6.1 manifolds go for something like $340ish and one is more expensive than the other by about $20 bucks. 

I tried to buy a set on Ebay a while back just to have for reference, but they ended up going for quite high and I bowed out.   Picks, can't help with pics.  I did personally LOOK under the hood of a SRT GC and the manifolds are tucked in much tighter to the block than the LX versions.   Go find a GC at a dealer and have a look;  see what you think...

[rjsjea]

here is a pic of the jeep manifolds/headers

[CudaSRT8]

Those are LX manifolds.   The GC look different.   Some LX manifolds on Ebay have incorrectly been labelled "Chrysler, Charger, Grand Cherokee" when in fact, the Cherokee are different...