Whats the Deal on Stealth Heads

[kenny b]

I picked up my stealth heads from the post office on saturday morning. They looked great right out of the box. Being in the automotive trade and working on chrysler products for some 30 years I have always been a little skeptical of any first run productions, being it cars or parts. I disassembled my new heads and then took them to show my machinist his reply was " wow" and he couldn't believe what I paid for them. I was at Carlisle last July and talked to Brandon and Natalie and was very impressed. My car is a 71 demon with a 446 and hopefully in the near future I will be putting together a stroker and will be calling Brandon and his company for one of their kits. Keep up the good work 440source.

[dusterdood]

I have to agree with the sentiment that over there has gotten out of control, and I'm glad Brandon will be on here. I've bought a small amount of stuff from Brandon (oil pump, and pick up tube), but he always takes the time to talk/write back to me. His positive attitude, and willingness to figure this problem out speaks volumes. Has anyone including Brandon himself seen this gasket over hang issue? The fact that one set might have been crap crossed my mind more than once. I've contacted another guy who Brandon sponsors, and can buy the same parts through him, and Brandon took the time to help me identify him. There's no cash in it for Brandon at this time, and he still wrote back. Stand up guy behavior!

[speedymopars]

All in all, I am very pleased.The OTB heads are as good as Indy, Eddy,or anyone elses.IMO.

Rick

Thanks for the support guys, we will begin to post our help and feedback on here, and we will no longer be a part of Moparts. Anytime a new product is released, there will be small things that can be improved, and we will keep everyone on here posted with specific technical details.

When people put things like "I love cheap chinese junk" in their sigs, it shows they don't have any interest in the site being a genuine help, they only want to add fire to controversy. By the mods allowing it, it really discredits and degrades the site itself.

We're not looking for only positive "worshipping" of our company and products, in fact I am all for people posting their unbiased findings, good or bad. If it's bad, it'll help us to make improvements. But almost everyone on there that is posting the negative has not only likely never seen our heads, but probably has never bought a single product from us, ever.

That fel-pro 1009 gasket has known issues with many other heads on the market (including edelbrocks and mopar stage 6's) because of it's smaller bore size. One guy even said he tried it on his stock bore block and it hung over into the cylinder. Yet the resident "head expert" on there starts talking about needing to weld things up and saying that he would send the heads back as defective. Several other well known shops have called me personally and said they can't understand why he would post such a thing. I hope it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he makes his living selling Indy cylinder heads. There are many people out there that have considerable financial stakes they've invested in their business and inventory. Believe me, they are CERTAINLY not pleased with our recent offerings. As usual, much of it comes down to the almighty dollar. 

In any case, thanks again for the support. We have over 350 heads on backorder. Because of that moparts fiasco, two people have cancelled their order. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Brandon.

I started a company doing jeep 4.7 items a while back - and everyone bitched and complained that my product didn't / wouldn't work. In spite of the fact I had sound theorys behind why it worked. So I went ahead and used a G-tech. Oh, the whiners got louder and louder, and even started slandering me. I kept selling more and more product. Finally, I took it to the strip and showed a .3 improvement and 4 MPH - and they STILL said it wouldn't work.

Turns out the ones that ones that were talking fell into one of three catigories A) never bought a product B) never built or raced any type of engine and C) Didn't even own a 4.7 jeep. The most critical one fell into all three catagories. 

Some just like to bitch.

Welcome home :-)

[JL67gt]

Ya Speedy theirs alot of talkers out there that have never built any thing on there own Its to bad Im new to mopar I use to be a sinner (chevy)but mopar is my way now am saved.Keep up the good work.I also like the 440 source it dosnt matter where the product is made as long as it is watched for qulity.This may suprize alot of people (my brother owns a steel company)most of are good steel is exported and were left with crap.

[Mopower71]

Brandon,
I have a question about the new heads.
Have you tried to mount a set of ProParts Headers ( 440 a-body ), and is there any problem with the plug to header clearance?
These heads seem like a great deal, and when funds permit, I would like to build a stroker out of the spare 440 block I have. These heads look like they will be a perfect budget fit into the plan.
Thanks for making an affordable Brand new head.

[nightrider]

Got the heads today and opened one of them, looked them over and i personally think they are awesome! They will be going on the motor in a day or two!

[jyrki]

I received my first set yesterday, should have two more coming soon for some port work. Took a quick look at them, they look pretty nice, but it seem sthat the chamber locations aren't very accurate and the head gaskets hang over the chambers at some points. Same thing with the two different head gaskets I tried (fel pro PT8519 and 1039 for 4.59" bore!). Moving the gasket slightly may fix this, but it's worth checking. Also noticed that there are very different lock depths in the retainers, up to about .080". This must have an effect on the valve spring pressures etc. and doesnät really showcase a quality product. Didn't have time to check the intake/exhaust port mouth locations, but will do that on saturday + measuring the valve spring pressures as tehy come out of the box.

[myrtle]

I tried calling a few times this week. Id like in on the second batch. Please tell me you still have some that are for sale.

[340fyd]

All in all, I am very pleased.The OTB heads are as good as Indy, Eddy,or anyone elses.IMO.

Rick

Thanks for the support guys, we will begin to post our help and feedback on here, and we will no longer be a part of Moparts. Anytime a new product is released, there will be small things that can be improved, and we will keep everyone on here posted with specific technical details.

When people put things like "I love cheap chinese junk" in their sigs, it shows they don't have any interest in the site being a genuine help, they only want to add fire to controversy. By the mods allowing it, it really discredits and degrades the site itself.

We're not looking for only positive "worshipping" of our company and products, in fact I am all for people posting their unbiased findings, good or bad. If it's bad, it'll help us to make improvements. But almost everyone on there that is posting the negative has not only likely never seen our heads, but probably has never bought a single product from us, ever.

That fel-pro 1009 gasket has known issues with many other heads on the market (including edelbrocks and mopar stage 6's) because of it's smaller bore size. One guy even said he tried it on his stock bore block and it hung over into the cylinder. Yet the resident "head expert" on there starts talking about needing to weld things up and saying that he would send the heads back as defective. Several other well known shops have called me personally and said they can't understand why he would post such a thing. I hope it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he makes his living selling Indy cylinder heads. There are many people out there that have considerable financial stakes they've invested in their business and inventory. Believe me, they are CERTAINLY not pleased with our recent offerings. As usual, much of it comes down to the almighty dollar. 

In any case, thanks again for the support. We have over 350 heads on backorder. Because of that moparts fiasco, two people have cancelled their order. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Brandon.

I'm glad you came over here.  I really used to like that site.  You've put up with a lot of crap over there that's for sure.  Thanks for helping the Mopar crowd out.

Lee

[375InStroke]

Anyone from Indy or Edelbrock ever come to any of the boards to talk to us about their products?  I guess they are perfect and don't have time to dignify any complaints people have about their stuff with a response.

[IL.DART340- 4SP]

Laysons, MR G'S and 440 Source have. We here at Will Welcome All. 

[nightrider]

I received my first set yesterday, should have two more coming soon for some port work. Took a quick look at them, they look pretty nice, but it seem sthat the chamber locations aren't very accurate and the head gaskets hang over the chambers at some points. Same thing with the two different head gaskets I tried (fel pro PT8519 and 1039 for 4.59" bore!). Moving the gasket slightly may fix this, but it's worth checking. Also noticed that there are very different lock depths in the retainers, up to about .080". This must have an effect on the valve spring pressures etc. and doesnät really showcase a quality product. Didn't have time to check the intake/exhaust port mouth locations, but will do that on saturday + measuring the valve spring pressures as tehy come out of the box.

I'll know this later when I mock them up on the block to check valve clearance... I'll keep an eye out for the gasket problem, and I am using KB domed pistons as well... so I have to check for contact there... either way, i've ran stock heads with way more inconsistencies without a problem...

[jyrki]

Having owned some mopar performance heads (stage VI, hi swirl), I do know what imperfection is, and also know that despite of that they did work. However, I really do not like the situation that when  you buy new parts, you must first rebuild them or do some tricks to be able to use them. In my opinion, in spite of the country of the origin, it's not the way things are supposed to be. reading these writings here and elsewhere, it seems that people are ready to accept that the part you buy is not usable out of the box. In my opinion, that's not right, and you must demand that the parts are such quality that they can be bolted on straight from the box, and used without problems. I think they would be sold as "cores", if that wasn't the intention? The low price is not a defence or an excuse for a part being bad. I think 440 source has gone a bit wrong this time, and they should make all the effort possible to make things right, instead of blaming the ones that bring these concerns out. I would think it would be their advance too to be able a good quality product, that everyone are happy with. In my opinion, other parts being just the same isn't a very good excuse. Instead of wellcoming one more less than perfect product to the market with a big hurray, we should rather get rid of the others.

[vitamindart]

i have nothing but good to say about brandon and 440 source they were a whole lot more helpfull to me when i bought the parts to put back together the mess the fine my overpriced indy parts got me , i only had to complain for days pay to ship the heads back after it looked like my kid ported the heads and the gouges in the exhaust flange surface where the gaskets seal was suppose to be acceptable it doesn't effect how the head works i was told never again.... i buy heads from 440 source or koffel (b1) as both have been a pleasure to deal with

[hwp]

I am not one to get into the thick of things like this. I normaly just read and learn. However this time I cant keep my mouth shut. I am a member of many sites. I bought my first A-body a few years ago, and love it. I have also been a mopar guy all my life, Listning to the bowtie and blue ovel boys BS rant and rave. For the most part mopar people are the best. But there are many smarta$$$$ out there to. Brandon has brought to the table a product that we (the mopar world) have needed for sometime. We are not working on small block chebys here. But it is nice to have some parts priced like it for a change. All the moneing and groneing is doing no one any good. Brandon states that if we find problems with his products to let him know. I go to many a show and race, and every time Edyblock was on site I wanted to seen the new Victor head on display. But they would never have it. Indy will not talk to you about there problems. Bulldog. Hell you cant find anyone who sells them. Mopar performance. Thanks to much of there iron. 20 years ago you could not give a old mopar away. Now there are all these experts falling out of the trees. Thank you Brandon and the whole 440 source crew. I can deal with the head gasket problem. And will help any way I can to improve or give feedback so you can make parts we all can buy. I do plan on testing these heads a 1/4 mile at a time. I will port, cut, match. and when I am done, I will order another set for my other drag car. To my knowledge everyone is welcome here, and if you have a good question for them, ask it. Dont bash, make fun of where its made, of down the people that bring the cake to the table. The gas you burn in these cars is not from the U.S. eather. 

[JL67gt]

  I just scored on some vic heads that have never been ran before am going to sell them and buy Brandons heads and keep the change to put more into my ride.THANKS 440 SOURCE keep up the good work

[jyrki]

I have used 440 sources other products too, and they have been just what the doctor ordered, sods, cranks, balancers ready to be bplted on. But in my opinion, these heads are not as good,a t least the set I have in my garage. When I receive the other sets, I can propably tell more accurately wether this is a trend or not. If you are willing to accept bad quality parts and smile paying for them, then each to his own. The head gasket laying over the chamber possibly is one thing, that will cause several people problems. There is no easy fix for that, an aftermarket head should be able to use head gaskets for the intended engine family, or they should come with gaskets that work. I would rather have parts without such defects. And I fully agree, 440 source is propably the best thing that has happened to BB mopar builders for the last 30 years, after the production ended, and want to thank Brandon about that. Still, that doesn't make  less than perfect heads any better than what they are. 

[dusterdarryl]

Didn't catch all that, but that's too bad. 

Has to do with a competent head guru going through a head, and finding two flaws that I can see.  And he flowed them too.  Pretty close to Edelbrock's #s.

Flaw/situation #1 was that the fire ring of Fel-Pro head gasket #1009 was into the combustion chamber a little.  Someone else posted saying that his head was fine with the 1009 gasket.  Another stated that a ROL gasket, with a bigger bore, would be a solution.  Another suggested using a steel head gasket, but trimming it to fit the chamber.

Flaw/situation #2 had something to do with the area behind the valves I believe.  Can't say for sure what is was though.

It's like watching a bunch of kids fighting over there sometimes I swear.  Too bad.  Used to be a very informative site.  Still is sometimes though, if politics can be left out.

codfish

that  head guru should take the time to look at some indy heads that are out of the box

[jyrki]

I have only had two sets of Indy 440-1's, what's the problem with them? I didn't notice any and both worked just bolting them on with any head gasket available for the engine family. It seems to me, that most people considering these heads great as they are, are just wishing they would be fine, without even having seen a set. In my opinion, they are not the quality I'm used to when buying 440 source parts. I'm a bit disappointd about the quality. Hopefully there isnät any more surprises left, but we'll see on saturday.

[dusterdood]

This is what I've been looking for. Someone who is going to compare more than one set of these. Keep us posted on what you find out!

[jyrki]

Of course these are all from the first production batch, but it didn't sound to me like Brandon would have been very eager to make production changes in these heads? I wish he would correct the chamber problem, and perhaps pay a bit better attention to the QC in the retainers etc, and the product would be great. Can't say anything about the valvebowls etc yet, since I haven't disassembled them. I happened to find a set of MP Stage VI porting templates from my storage, and may try fitting them in to the ports to compare the bowl size & shapes to them just for fun. 

[nightrider]

Heres a note, and Brandon told me this in advance, Stock head bolts WILL NOT WORK, Have to use studs/bolts with a shoulder aka ARPs....

[jyrki]

With stock bolts there is no room for socket, that is common for most other aluminum heads too.

[440source]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the posts and the feedback. Because we have now sold hundreds upon hundreds of sets of these heads and had practically every major cylinder head shop look them over from top to bottom, there are two specific areas they have found that we will improve upon.

The first is that a felpro 1009 gasket will overhang slightly on a couple areas of the bore. Most people have found it's by about .010" On our test engines, we tested these heads with the ROL gaskets that come in our gasket kits we sell, and they have a slightly different shape, so we weren't aware of it from the start. On all the test engines we built, we were able to bolt the heads on "as-is" straight out of the box, and we never had a single issue of head gasket failure or any related problems. Currently, our chamber design is a standard closed chamber design, identical to Edelbrocks. So any specific gasket will fit our heads the same as it would Edelbrocks. If you look on an Edelbrock cylinder head box, it specifically states "MUST BE USED WITH ONLY EDELBROCK HEAD GASKETS." We never guaranteed that our heads would work with every single gasket on the market from every manufacturer. However, that is apparently the standard that is expected of us, even when that is clearly not the case with Edelbrock. That being said, in the interest of making our heads EVEN BETTER, we are going to make the chamber slightly smaller to ensure that every single gasket on the market for the big block mopar engine will fit our heads perfectly. It will cost a few CFM from the heads since there will be increased valve shrouding, but it will give the customer the option of scribing the gasket bore onto the head and opening up the chamber to the exact point they want, if they so desire. Keep in mind we're talking about moving the edge of the chamber in by maybe .030" here (about the thickness of a human fingernail.) The fact that this has generated the amount of controversy it has is nothing short of amazing.

The second area is that the valve locks supplied with the heads do vary slightly in thickness. They are stamped steel, so it most likely is caused by the pressure of the stamping press varying from one run to another. It does cause the retainers to vary slightly in their installed height. This doesn't "look" great and we will improve it as soon as possible. As far as functionality, it does not affect the performance of the locks to do their job, in other words there is no reason it will prevent the heads from being bolted on and run as-is. Because it may cause the installed height of the springs to vary slightly, the seat pressure from one spring to another may vary by a few pounds. For most street or street/strip applications with cams under .600" lift, it won't make any difference. In a worst case scenario, you can shim the springs to a specific installed height which will correct the variance. Shims will cost you all of a couple bucks.

As far as people posting that we've "fallen short this time," please keep the following facts in mind:

1. Aside from an engine block, cylinder heads are the most complicated part of an entire automobile to design and manufacture. Stage 6 aluminum aftermarket heads manufactured directly by Chrysler still have many issues that havent been fixed, and they've been in production for close to a decade (maybe even longer.) Even with the millions of dollars, teams of engineers and factory support behind them, Mopar themselves still haven't been able to achieve in nearly a decade what many people seem to be expecting us to achieve in the very first run.

2. Even Edelbrock, hands down "THE" biggest aftermarket company out there, went through many issues and took many tries before they got all the bugs worked out of their RPM heads. Many builders will tell you all the bugs still aren't worked out of Edelbrocks. We've had some issues in the past with certain parts of their castings not clearing our roller rocker arms. We made sure when we designed our heads to check this, and to ensure there are no rocker to casting clearance issues. In this respect, I feel our design is actually better than Edelbrock. And, keep in mind we are a relatively smaller company, yet we've been able to release these at half the price. But to not expect SOME improvements after the first production run is unrealistic. If your kid took took up an interest in baseball, and at his very first time up to bat, he didn't hit a home run out of the park, would you critisize him and tell him how he really "fell short?" I mean, come on, guys, that's exactly what's happening here. As with all the products we sell, we are VERY interested in improving them until we feel they are as good as they can be for the price. The statement about us not being "very eager" to make changes couldn't be farther from the truth. But the process of production, assembly, shipping, etc. takes time. Expect 3-4 months at least until the heads are a work of perfection. (Or at least as close as their gonna get.) Even now, (although they have a couple minor improvements to be made,) I still think they're a great product for a great price, as do most of the customers that have bought and/or seen them. Keep in mind that people are scrutinizing these things on every possible tiny minute detail. If you take any product on the market and subject it to that level of scrutny, you're going to find SOMETHING that can be improved upon.

I've been into Mopars from the early days, and I remember what it was like to have almost NO aftermarket parts available. The ones that were available were horribly overpriced. One single thing is responsible for changing that situation: COMPETITION. It's not only great for the Mopar world, it's great for our country, and it's the very building blocks our system of capitalism stands on. To suggest we "get rid" of all products that don't meet the gold standard of perfection is not only unrealistic, it's un-American. If there was one supplier making aluminum cylinder heads for the big block Mopar, you can bet your bottom dollar you'll be paying $4500 a set for them, if not more. And that's regardless of the quality being good OR bad. If it's bad, why should they improve it? What are you going to do, take your business elsewhere? Get my point?

Anyway, hope this answers some people's questions and thanks again for all the kind words about our company.
 

[IL.DART340- 4SP]

Thank You Brandon for your reply. I realize that you do not have the time to reply to post on sites. But I'm glad that you do here. I would like to say that with any new item that comes on the market. That it will be tested by the customer to find out how good the quality is etc. What I see here is a lot of members doing there own research. Which is great for me because I may or may not have as much knowledge or engine building experience. So I can watch,listen and learn a few things. Without bothering anyone. We are all excited about any new items that will help us to be able to afford to drive are cars that we love. These new heads have turned the Mopar world upside down. Can you achieve 100% customer satisfaction? Probably not and no one else can either!  Believe me when I say that other manufactures have taken notice of what you are selling. You and your company are here for the long haul and so are your customers. So for you to come on here and explain to the customer what your professionals findings were.(There are two specific areas they have found that we will improve upon.) Means everything to us. We also realize that you are doing everything humanly possible to give your customers the very best product at a reasonable price.Thank You and come back to when ever you can.

[jyrki]

Thanks Brandon, I'm glad you are trying to fix the imperfections on these areas, i'm sure that in the end it's a good decision for the company too.

[ksdartguy]

 
wont be long now.

Rick

[mattq]

Good response Brandon I am involved in manufacturing of new components for automotive parts, custom parts etc.... the first runs are never the hands down best parts it takes time to dial this stuff in and I take my hat off to you for jumping in and moving this to the next level.  Engineering a part like this is no easy task I would put some checks and balances in to check your vendor to keep them honest for sure.  That only covers your butt.  good luck and good job.     I thank you for providing more options to us next project I think should be small block upgrades

[daniel_depetro]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the posts and the feedback. Because we have now sold hundreds upon hundreds of sets of these heads and had practically every major cylinder head shop look them over from top to bottom, there are two specific areas they have found that we will improve upon.

The first is that a felpro 1009 gasket will overhang slightly on a couple areas of the bore. Most people have found it's by about .010" On our test engines, we tested these heads with the ROL gaskets that come in our gasket kits we sell, and they have a slightly different shape, so we weren't aware of it from the start. On all the test engines we built, we were able to bolt the heads on "as-is" straight out of the box, and we never had a single issue of head gasket failure or any related problems. Currently, our chamber design is a standard closed chamber design, identical to Edelbrocks. So any specific gasket will fit our heads the same as it would Edelbrocks. If you look on an Edelbrock cylinder head box, it specifically states "MUST BE USED WITH ONLY EDELBROCK HEAD GASKETS." We never guaranteed that our heads would work with every single gasket on the market from every manufacturer. However, that is apparently the standard that is expected of us, even when that is clearly not the case with Edelbrock. That being said, in the interest of making our heads EVEN BETTER, we are going to make the chamber slightly smaller to ensure that every single gasket on the market for the big block mopar engine will fit our heads perfectly. It will cost a few CFM from the heads since there will be increased valve shrouding, but it will give the customer the option of scribing the gasket bore onto the head and opening up the chamber to the exact point they want, if they so desire. Keep in mind we're talking about moving the edge of the chamber in by maybe .030" here (about the thickness of a human fingernail.) The fact that this has generated the amount of controversy it has is nothing short of amazing.

The second area is that the valve locks supplied with the heads do vary slightly in thickness. They are stamped steel, so it most likely is caused by the pressure of the stamping press varying from one run to another. It does cause the retainers to vary slightly in their installed height. This doesn't "look" great and we will improve it as soon as possible. As far as functionality, it does not affect the performance of the locks to do their job, in other words there is no reason it will prevent the heads from being bolted on and run as-is. Because it may cause the installed height of the springs to vary slightly, the seat pressure from one spring to another may vary by a few pounds. For most street or street/strip applications with cams under .600" lift, it won't make any difference. In a worst case scenario, you can shim the springs to a specific installed height which will correct the variance. Shims will cost you all of a couple bucks.

Finally a place with customer service this day in age. AMEN! Now that is what I call listening to your projected audience and making a product to fit thier needs. This shows that they are willing do do what WE want so WE are satisfied. I just sold both fresh sets of reman factory '452' iron heads I had to help pay for these 440 Source aluminum versions. Unfortunately they sold out too fast and I missed the last set from Chenoweth by about 30 minutes... (go figure). Thankfully it looks like I will be getting the more refined product anyways. Thanks for listening to our concerns and taking quick action and RESOLVING the issue. Now I am just awaiting the next batch to arrive...