Leaf spring bent sideways???

[marc426]

Hello everyone, i'm posting here a copy of what i posted on another mopar forum. I just can't seem to find someone who experienced this.
Well, here it goes :

Got a problem on my dart '67.
Let's begin from the start : i found someday that the right tire is slightly touching the quarter panel. I guess it was like this when i bought it a few months ago because i didn't do anything and the car isn't rolling yet so...
I thought it was because of the big tires on it (215/75 R15) but of course it wasn't because the left tire wasn't touching it's quarter panel and there was even a few inches of room!
So i decided to put it all apart...
Yesterday i started loosening the rear end (rusted bolts...) and i found out both my leaf springs are like bent to the right. This just makes sense since my right tire is too close to the quarter panel...
What could make this happen?!

Also a few other questions : on my flexible brakeline that goes to the rear axle, what should i loosen first? The big nut on the flexible or the small nut on the rigid one?

I also don't really know how to make my rearend "fall apart", i loosened the shackle bolts at the rear, the shock mounts on the leaf springs, the front mount (both the big nut in the leaf eye and the four nuts of the mounts). Should i try to pull the whole thing in order to make the front mount come off?

One last thing : my car is actually on axle stands at the rear, i'm a bit unsecure about it, can it stays a few days like this whithout bending the frame?
By the way, my left subframe (just in front of the leaf spring) is a bit crushed "to the inside" as if someone tried to lift the whole car on this point. Can it be a problem for the whole structure or is it just common?

Thanks a lot for your help and reading this novel i wrote...!

Marc


P.S : i have another question : are the shims to correct the pinion angle bolted into place? I mean can i just remove the leafs from the rearend
and put it back without messing this angle? Newbie question i guess! 

EDIT : i've got a 7"1/4 behind a... slant six... Sorry, not really big blocks...

[cu440da]

By the way, my left subframe (just in front of the leaf spring) is a bit crushed "to the inside" as if someone tried to lift the whole car on this point. Can it be a problem for the whole structure or is it just common?

Sounds like it may have been in a accident at some point and never fully repaired. Leaf springs are some tough buggers, they wouldn't bend unless there was an inpact.

The car will be fine on the stands, just make sure they are in a stable position so it won't slip off them.

I'd remove the brake line at the block on the rear end.

The rear will come out, could be rusted in place. Sounds like you have most of the hardware removed, just give a few whacks with a mallet to break any rust scale loose and things will loosen up.

[qkcuda]

Do you have stock rear shackles?  The cheapo aftermarket ones will collapse sideways ( // ) because the studs are not welded squarely to the shackle.

[marc426]

@qkcuda : i have the stock ones, at least it seems like... They're not collapsed either.

@cu440da : i'll try to post some pictures of the subframe soon. Does this crush could have bent the whole car?
To be precise, the leaf are not "flexed" but each lower leaf is disaligned to the right with it's upper brother. Is that clear? 

[moparteacher]

Remove the small nut on the rigid line that comes from the master cylinder and is mounted at the bracket on the body. Once you've removed the steel line, remove the u-shaped clip that holds the flex line in the bracket, then you can remove the flex line from the t-block if you wish. The pinion agle shims are pinched between the axle perch and the top of the leak spring. Remove the u-bolts and lift the housing off the leaf springs to free up the shims. Simply put the shims back in the way you found them when you install the new springs, you should be fine.

Moparteacher

[marc426]

Got some pics where you can slightly see the "bending" of the leaf springs.
I unbolted everything this afternoon but they won't come off the shackles, do i have to do something special to make them come? Also a strange thing : i discovered my rear end was mounted without wedges... Could that be the source of my problems? I also discovered i had air shocks... Don't even know how to disconnect them or make them work...
Thanks for your help!

Marc

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[fourspeed]

I dunno. Those pictures look pretty normal to me. If it were me, I would leave those leaf springs in place unless you have some other reaason to replace them. Maybe the air shocks were on it because the leaf springs are weak. In that case, you would have a good reason to remove the springs. Ditch the air shocks - they're a band-aid.

Some minor misalignment can happen with leaf springs. It's not that unusual. There's a bolt that holds the stack of leaves together. It's also the "pin" that locates the axle on the springs. The leaves are held together by that bolt, and the spring clamps.

I noticed a big 'ol wheel spacer bolted to the brake drum. Those are NOT recommended! Do both sides have spacers? Do both wheels match - for width and offset? If you switch tires side-to-side, is it still the right side that has clearance problems?

Mopars did not have wedges from the factory. Those are used to adjust pinion angle, if necessary.

[marc426]

Mopars did not have wedges from the factory. Those are used to adjust pinion angle, if necessary.

Ok!!!

I noticed a big 'ol wheel spacer bolted to the brake drum. Those are NOT recommended!

Well, i do have those both sides. The previous owner put it. The problem is that i have fancy wheels (and my only wheels...) that bolts onto those spacers but they won't without spacers (not the right bolt pattern). What do i risk in keeping it? Apart from eating ball bearings...?
I didn't switch wheels but since they're the same as well as my spacers, i don't think it would change a thing. I'll check anyway.

On one pic, i also noticed the shackle mount seems to be bent to the interior. I guess i'm worrying too much but since i can't find the source of this problem...

Thanks for your help!

Marc

[cu440da]

Nothing looks really out of the ordinary there.

I highly recommend you get rid of the cinder block supporting the car and use real jack stands or something similar. I have heard of cinder blocks literally exploding from the weight of a car on them. That might hurt a bit if you happen to be under the car at the time.

[sickhemi]

never get under a car without jack stands supporting it not even with a 3 ton jack that is how people get killed!!!!

[marc426]

never get under a car without jack stands supporting it

That's why i don't get under! 
The cinder blocks held up so far (two weeks). I wish I had stands to put my car on but the ones i've got doesn't lend me any confidence. I'd rather have it on those blocks than on my skinny 2000kgs stands. really! 

Some news from the front : i have some pictures of the "bad" subframe. I also put on some pics of my left leaf spring.
Any comment is welcome!
Thanks

Marc

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[green67cuda]

i've been wanting to say this for awhile now, but my boss, who has been wrtenching mopars since the mid 60s, said that the rear end in our cars were offset to the passenger side with the engine and tranny.  he said the passenger side tire on a stock a-body is always closer to the quarter than the driver's sdie.  could this be the case? 

[marc426]

I guess that could be the point since i have those "wideners" on my brake drum...

[Lars]

The frame damage doesn't look bad, and yes, I think the rears in our cars are offset (or just not centered right) because my 70 has more side clearance on one side as opposed to the other (haven't checked the others yet though). If you are just rolling the car around your garage/yard don't worry about the wheel adapters, they'll be fine. Just don't go rolling down the highway at 70+ with them on the car. Oh yeah, ditch the air shocks and get some KYB gas-a-just shocks, or something similar.

[mopartranman]

I wonder if somone put in a early 65-67 B-body rearend in it?  Seen guys do it and have to bow out the leafsprings some to make it fit the b-body perches.  Is it big bolt pattern?

[mopartranman]

Oh.... I see the edit where's it's a 7 1/4.  Never mind.

[marc426]

First, thanks for your answers!
Still, got a few questions

Just don't go rolling down the highway at 70+ with them on the car

Why?  The previous owner had it for a while and it seems (i said seems) like it did nothing special... Maybe the rearend bearings...? No?

And another one : can i go to a truck shop with my leaf springs and have them straightened? Or should i buy some new ones? Given i'm living across the pond... 

[Lars]

First, thanks for your answers!
Still, got a few questions

Just don't go rolling down the highway at 70+ with them on the car

Why?  The previous owner had it for a while and it seems (i said seems) like it did nothing special... Maybe the rearend bearings...? No?

Well, they can be fine for a while, and then they will just snap off the car without warning, or if you hit a good pot hole they will shear off. They generally just aren't that safe.

[marc426]

Went to a truck shop this morning and i told them about my leaf springs being not straight...
They told me to put it apart (not unscrewing the bolt but the little metallic (?) straps that holds it together) and hammer it until it's straight.
Can I do that? How should I put the straps back? How are they "closed"?
Thanks for your help

Marc

[Ed]

I think you're chasing your own taill looking for problems that aren't there.   The way these cars were built at the factory means that things will be off a little bit no matter what.  Then add 30 plus years of driving and who knows what happens.  If the car goes down the road straight, I wouldn't worry about dings and small bends.

Now with air shocks, it's a good chance that the springs are just wore out.  You could replace or get them re-arched or even a helper spring.  But it's easy enuff to check, take them out and see how the back sits.   Maybe someone wanted the back end up in the air.

To get those brackets straps off, you have to unbolt the rear support bracket from the frame.  It's held on by 2 bolts.   

Please don't use cinder blocks to support a car, they will crack and do a little explosion and your car is sitting on the ground or your head.   Small wheel spacer's are fine if you install longer studs.  I don't like wheel adapters and would never use them.   You have a 2000lb honda that makes 60hp, maybe I'd use adapters, but then again I'm never to drive a honda. 

[marc426]

Thanks a lot for your help Ed! Got a few questions :

helper spring

What are these?

To get those brackets straps off, you have to unbolt the rear support bracket from the frame.  It's held on by 2 bolts.

Not sure we're talking about the same things : i'm not talking about the shackles, my leaf springs are already on the ground and i'd like to straighten them cause' they're like flexed. Not really sagging (at least i can't tell) but flexed...

Marc

P.S : would traction bars help keep my leaf springs in line (and prevent twisting of course...).  Can I put them on a daily driver? Will it change the ride a lot?

[ekbeanctr]

The story about cinder blocks breaking under a load is not a myth.  My som had cinder blocks under his car, I spotted it, told him to get out from under the car and go get some good jack stands. He lifted the driver side to pull that block out and the one on the other side just flew to pieces, car down on the ground, luckily without my son under it.

DO NOT TRY TO SAVE MONEY HERE, PLEASE GO BUY SOME GOOD JACK STANDS.     

[marc426]

Ok, i put it half/half on cinder blocks and stands this afternoon. I really don't trust theses jack stands! 

EDIT : not one side/one side of course!... I just spread the load at each side.

[fourspeed]

Decent jack stands are cheap. It's great being able to work under the car without worries.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatDsp?storeId=6970&Ns=P_Price&N=89+364+768443

[VDART]

your frame is fine-- you should be thankful it bent(good metal-- no rust) as for you rear-- prior owner has put huge tires on your car-- it most likely came with 13" tires from the factory-- the air shocks gave clearance-- your original tire is somewhere around a 24" diameter185/80/13  so adjust your rear to fit those tires & the spacers-- you could have the axles drilled to accept the larger 4.5" bolt circle & that would give you more clearance.. Be careful-- surely you have a harbor freight type store(sears) that sells decent jack stands -- good luck