Ford plant in Brazil

[chryco]

If you have ever wondered as to how destructive the UAW is for the American consumer—watch this tape.

 

This is a video of a new  .  One look will tell what's wrong with the manufacturing plants of the US car makers.  It will also point out why more may go off shore.

 

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[flyboy01]

This will probably make a lot of people mad, but the Union in the US has overstayed its welcome, time for it to go.

[guzzimike]

This will probably make a lot of people mad, but the Union in the US has overstayed its welcome, time for it to go.

 

It was needed 100% a Century ago, and maybe on up to 50% usefulness until the mid 1960's...but after that, the UAW has been an albatrross acorss the US auto industry.


In an ironic way, I think that Unions became too successful for their own good.

[rjsjea]

This will probably make a lot of people mad, but the Union in the US has overstayed its welcome, time for it to go.

I agree with the problems the UAW has created, but without my union nobody would want my job     We are a "no strike" union and practice fair contract negotiations since I have been here, so not all unions need "to go"

[GTS225]

First, I should state that I am not a business owner or manager, simply another workerbee in a larger hive, and do not belong to any union other than a credit union.

I disagree, RJS........consider this;
As a business owner, would you want your employees telling you how much you must pay them; what benefits you must provide to/for them, and/or what/how many days off you must allow them to have, paid?

I can't say I know the answer for a civil service position that has union "protection", but it works the same.  Should a civil service employee be able to tell the taxpayer how much they will pay them for fire or law enforcement duties?  (also applies to time off & holidays) I will agree that the pay should be quite generous, even more than the elected body of that particular community.

Personally, I have seen the abuse that gets heaped onto the union worker by the union higher-ups......walking picket lines in nasty weather, getting a rather small "strike pay", or none at all and never being able to make up the wages that were lost.  I have seen the union body vote not to strike, but the hierarchy tell the body that they will be striking in support of a "sister" chapter against a parent company.  But I have never witnessed a higher-ranking union officer walking a picket line, or not getting his weekly check.  Those guys at the top don't give a rat's ass about the lower echelons.  They get thier 100K a year, and figure they've earned it, no matter what the peons have to go through.

Sorry, I have no time for union "representation".......I'll make my own deals, thank you.

Roger

[abodyjoe]

disagree, RJS........consider this;
As a business owner, would you want your employees telling you how much you must pay them; what benefits you must provide to/for them, and/or what/how many days off you must allow them to have, paid?

i hear what your saying but it goes the other way also.  being a workerbee do you want your boss telling you that you have to work 7 days a week and 12 hour days without overtime pay? do you want a lunch break? holidays off? do you like having benefits? it goes both ways.   

  unions get a bad wrap . they aren't all bad and they don't all take advantage of employers. bottom line is there is alot more power in numbers. the union is always blamed for sending companies out of this country which is a load of crap. sure the company will say that but in reality its so  the greedy assholes can make even more money.  thats what it is all about..    all the damn ceo's, cfo's, vp's assistant vp's all run the companies into the ground while spending on their huge expense accounts and collecting their huge bonus checks and then after they kill the company they get a damn nice package when they leave all the while blaming the union for costing them too much for skilled labor. its an easy out for them to blame the union,

 i'm not a union fanatic either. just sick of them getting all the blame while all the higher ups get off scott free.

[rjsjea]

GTS225...I hear what you are saying and dont completely disagree.  The union of which I am a member of provides legal representation, which is necessary in my job. It's not all about pay......our pay negotations are based on other similar sized agencies in the region.....not on what "we" tell the taxpayers to pay, it dont work that way in my example.

Oh yeah our "union higher-ups" make the same as members........and are also members

[dangerdawg]

 

[Dartdragracer]

I've been in many automobile assembly plants and Tier 1 supplier plants all across the country and Mexico and even a few in Europe. UAW plants are by far the worst.  The waste, neglect, and overall poor attitude in UAW plants contribute to the unfavorable working eviroment, quality issues, and workers whole outlook on their jobs and what's "DUE" to them. They aren't happy with just having a job that pays them $25/hr to push a button all day long, they want to maintain their free healthcare, and all of their benifits with no concessions to the changing world around them. And don't dare let someone else poush that button, thats grounds for a grievence because someone is taking their job......I hated doing work in UAW plants.
The workforce laws are in place now that weren't ever a concideration 75-100 years ago when the UAW was truly needed. Now it's hurting our automobile industry and in my opinion, is the major contributor to the death of the industry in the USA.  Workers us it as a safety net to keep their jobs when they knowingly are not producing at the level expected. Why should they? the Union will make sure they can't be fired.....
The Japanese, Koreans and Germans can build quality cars here and make money at it, but the "remaining" 3 US companies cannot. The reason? The Asian and German car plants are non union plants, they the have a work force that is cross trained, (anybody can work at any job on the assembly line) and from what I've seen, the workers truly care about putting out a quality product. Not just their overtime and what the next contract will bring like the UAW people.....

Notice in that video, the working carrying the complete exhaust pipe to the line? Would never happen here in the States. There has to be an expensive lift assist because of too many "injuries" from dangerous working conditions like that.

The UAW needs to restructure its core requirements and benifits to the Auto Workers, if not, one day they will  wake up and realize they no longer have any plants left to work in.

[demon340v]

be nice for those jobs to be here. oh well the way it is now, send the jobs elsewhere

[BigSlim]

disagree, RJS........consider this;
As a business owner, would you want your employees telling you how much you must pay them; what benefits you must provide to/for them, and/or what/how many days off you must allow them to have, paid?

i hear what your saying but it goes the other way also. being a workerbee do you want your boss telling you that you have to work 7 days a week and 12 hour days without overtime pay? do you want a lunch break? holidays off? do you like having benefits? it goes both ways.

 unions get a bad wrap . they aren't all bad and they don't all take advantage of employers. bottom line is there is alot more power in numbers. the union is always blamed for sending companies out of this country which is a load of crap. sure the company will say that but in reality its so the greedy assholes can make even more money. thats what it is all about.. all the damn ceo's, cfo's, vp's assistant vp's all run the companies into the ground while spending on their huge expense accounts and collecting their huge bonus checks and then after they kill the company they get a damn nice package when they leave all the while blaming the union for costing them too much for skilled labor. its an easy out for them to blame the union,

 i'm not a union fanatic either. just sick of them getting all the blame while all the higher ups get off scott free.

Thank you abodyjoe!!  In our shop the union employees are held to a much higher standard than salery employees are. We are the ones that keep this place open 24/7/365!! I gueran-damn-tee you that you won't find not one member of the management team in here on Memorial Day. But guess what Dartdradracer? The plant will run and run well thanks to UNION labor!!! I would compare our union bodies attendance record to that of the managers any day. We have managers that work 3.5 day work weeks. The other 1.5 days are "work from home days". They haven't worked a Sat or Sun in years. Give me a break, we work in a production facility. Change is needed and it needs to start at the top in the good-ole-boys club. Make managers manage, lead by example, know thier jobs and employees. Once that is cleaned up then come out to the shop floor and make changes! I'll be there and support said changes 100%.

[b569rr]

Do not group all unions together.

We, the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Refrigeration Mechanics work in harmony with out employers. Both members and owners contribute to our training fund. over 1 dollar an hour per employee goes into our training fund.

Both the company representatives and the union members own the Apprentice training facility. The union employees realize that we must work as efficiently as possible. This includes up to date training that always changes. And very important; if the company does not turn a profit, there will not be another job to go to. We must be very aware of potentially pricing ourselves out of the market.

We started a new program this year that I am very excited about. We have kids from 18 high schools coming down to our 32 booth welding facility Monday through Friday every week and learning how to weld. The union is paying for this out of our own pockets. I am one of the many volonteer welding instructors. And out of 20 kids whom I currently teach, I have my eye on several for future Steamfitter apprenticeships.

But without this local union participating in the community, alot of YOUR kids would be dropping out of high school. This is what the ________________ school district Sup. told me. Just trying to give these kids another option than college. I wish more of our building trades unions would follow.

So please don't group all unions together. It pretty much pisses me off. Nothing wrong with being organized and providing the best product for our employers. But I can only speak for my communitee.

Tom u.a local 32

[Dartdragracer]

BigSlim,
Its your "Us versus Them" thats a major part of what wrong with UAW practices.....I am not stating that all unions are bad, just the UAW mainly.  Have you ever been in a non-union Auto plant and seen how well it runs? All the players are on a equal base when it comes to responsibility.  And yes, I've spent many long hours and weekends in the plants with the line workers, maintenance and engineers to install, debug and run off equipment. You don't hear the "Thats not my Job so I can't touch it" attitude of the UAW workers.
People work together to gain the ultimate goal of producing a quality product and making a profit.
I've seen THOUSANDS of dollars wasted on waiting for a skilled tradesman to loosen a simple bolt to make an adjustment to a machine in a Union plant. I could have done it in 15 seconds and had the machine up and running again, the wrenches were there, but it took over an hour for a machine repair man to show up to turn the screw. Can't interuppt their break.
Great system there....I've been written up with a greivence for pushing an air line into a fitting to stop a leak, but because thats a pipe fitters job, I took work away from him, and he got paid and extra 1/2 hour. It's a joke at that point.   No wonder cars cost so much.

I'm not just talking isolated incidents, it the norm in a UAW automotive plant.  My experiences were always, without a doubt, much better in a non union plant.

[Dartdragracer]

Oh, by the way, Where do you think the Good ol' Boys Club originated?
It's the most senior employees that were once union themselves. They're work ethic just followed them into management by default.

[b569rr]

Agreed; you must change with the times. Production must be a priority while maintaining a safe work place and hopefully a descent wage.

Those stuck in the past and refuse to adapt, your job will dissappear.

I'm done. 

[BigSlim]

Dartdragracer,

No, the original gool-ole-boys club was populated by the likes of Andrew Carnegie, Samuel Mather, Henry Ford, Dodge Bros, ect. It was people like them who made Unions necassary.

You are not listening to what I am saying, CHANGE needs to take place on both sides of this issue. I have seen many of the things that you talk about with my own eyes. I AGREE that they are ridiculous and out of line. What I am saying is thatin my plant that management needs to manage. They need to go get  the operator or mechanic and make them do their jobs! It easyer not to be confrontational and do nothing, so nothing but complaining gets done.

90% +/- of my local unions time is probably spent on 3 - 5 % of the union body. These are the guys and girls that should NOT have jobs. The unoin can't work the problem and in my plant at least managament won't. Our contract is very spacific in regards to break times, quality and production numbers. If you ask most of the 1st line supervisors thay have no idea what the contract says or how to go about using any kind of disciplinary proceedure. Teach them to use the system, let them use it and most importantly back them when they do use it. At the same time the union needs to step up and tell these folks that after the second or third offence on a given issue that they will no longer have union representation. Like I siad start change at the very top, work your way down and I could support it 100%.

Buy the way; I wonder what kind or money a CEO or plant manager in Japan, Korea or Germany makes?

[chryco]

disagree, RJS........consider this;
As a business owner, would you want your employees telling you how much you must pay them; what benefits you must provide to/for them, and/or what/how many days off you must allow them to have, paid?

i hear what your saying but it goes the other way also.  being a workerbee do you want your boss telling you that you have to work 7 days a week and 12 hour days without overtime pay? do you want a lunch break? holidays off? do you like having benefits? it goes both ways.   

  unions get a bad wrap . they aren't all bad and they don't all take advantage of employers. bottom line is there is alot more power in numbers. the union is always blamed for sending companies out of this country which is a load of crap. sure the company will say that but in reality its so  the greedy assholes can make even more money.  thats what it is all about..    all the damn ceo's, cfo's, vp's assistant vp's all run the companies into the ground while spending on their huge expense accounts and collecting their huge bonus checks and then after they kill the company they get a damn nice package when they leave all the while blaming the union for costing them too much for skilled labor. its an easy out for them to blame the union,

 i'm not a union fanatic either. just sick of them getting all the blame while all the higher ups get off scott free.

 

[chryco]

Do not group all unions together.

We, the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Refrigeration Mechanics work in harmony with out employers. Both members and owners contribute to our training fund. over 1 dollar an hour per employee goes into our training fund.

Both the company representatives and the union members own the Apprentice training facility. The union employees realize that we must work as efficiently as possible. This includes up to date training that always changes. And very important; if the company does not turn a profit, there will not be another job to go to. We must be very aware of potentially pricing ourselves out of the market.

We started a new program this year that I am very excited about. We have kids from 18 high schools coming down to our 32 booth welding facility Monday through Friday every week and learning how to weld. The union is paying for this out of our own pockets. I am one of the many volonteer welding instructors. And out of 20 kids whom I currently teach, I have my eye on several for future Steamfitter apprenticeships.

But without this local union participating in the community, alot of YOUR kids would be dropping out of high school. This is what the ________________ school district Sup. told me. Just trying to give these kids another option than college. I wish more of our building trades unions would follow.

So please don't group all unions together. It pretty much pisses me off. Nothing wrong with being organized and providing the best product for our employers. But I can only speak for my communitee.

Tom u.a local 32

   U.A Local 254

[abodyjoe]

The Japanese, Koreans and Germans can build quality cars here and make money at it, but the "remaining" 3 US companies cannot. The reason? The Asian and German car plants are non union plants, they the have a work force that is cross trained, (anybody can work at any job on the assembly line) and from what I've seen, the workers truly care about putting out a quality product. Not just their overtime and what the next contract will bring like the UAW people.....

  that is a load of crap.  maybe if the big three didn't build crap for 30 freaking years then they wouldn't  be hurting so damn bad.   sorry but you have to admit that in the 70's and 80's the jap cars lasted while the big three produced nothing but junk that got bad mileage. and the union line workers didn't design that crap.   americans wanted something different and the big three being the arrogant asswipes that they are didn't listen . the public spoke with their money. they went jap.    now you have generations of families that drive jap cars because that is what they were brought up around.  the biggest problem is it takes years and years to build a good reputation and only one day to ruin a good reputation..  i don't feel bad for the big three.  they brought everything on themsleves with mismanagment.


  do things have to change and evolve damn right they do. but look at it . its not all the unions fault. there is pleanty of blame to go around.

[guzzimike]

  that is a load of crap.  maybe if the big three didn't build crap for 30 freaking years then they wouldn't  be hurting so damn bad.   sorry but you have to admit that in the 70's and 80's the jap cars lasted while the big three produced nothing but junk that got bad mileage. and the union line workers didn't design that crap.   .

Actually, it's not so much a load of crap as it is a sad story...

The reason that the Japs and Germas were so efficient is that they followed a production model designed and developed by a USA engineer.

Thsi is true. I forget his name, but it's a fact. He was the one that insisted that even the smaller cog in the production wheel has a say and that there should be daily team meetings and stuff like that. He also set it up so that if any line worker saw a problem or imperfection, they could stop the line right there. In the USA Big 3, if the line stopped for any reason, there was Hell to pay.

This sense of workforce empowerement translated into a well developed and turned out producet. It took the USA decades to get into the flow.

Again, it's not that the offshore outfits were smarter than US, it's that we chose to ignore the better way for one reason or another. Unions, Labor, Management or a combination of blind spots from all concerned...Ultimatelly it's all the same Usual Suspects

And by looking at that Ford/Brazil plant video, it looks as if the same forces at work back then are still fooking it up for US here.

Just my opinion.

[440WIP]

Guzzimike - I think it was called the "Marshall Plan". It was designed by Americans to regenerate the busted economies in Japan (not sure about Germany), to get them self sustaining again (fast) so that the USA economy would not have to support them forever.
  Unions do dumb things and other times they do great things - just depends on your perspective. Hmmmm....... sounds like people I know..........
Daryl

[guzzimike]

Guzzimike - I think it was called the "Marshall Plan". It was designed by Americans to regenerate the busted economies in Japan (not sure about Germany), to get them self sustaining again (fast) so that the USA economy would not have to support them forever.
  Unions do dumb things and other times they do great things - just depends on your perspective. Hmmmm....... sounds like people I know..........
Daryl

Nope, not the Mashall Plan...

This was a an actual model for production lines in the automotive manufacturing business. It was a radical new thinkset developed by a US Engineer where even the least senior person on the line had the power to stop production it if they saw sometrhing that was not Kosher...It empowered the little guy and the Big 3 rejected it.

The Japanese and Germans (to a lesser degree) adopted it and ran with it. At first it was a clusterfukk, but eventually it led to lesser muistakes and a better product. And it sold. By the mid 1970's Japan, Inc cars were noticeable better built than the similar US product.

[Dartdragracer]

I'm talking the current members of the Good ol' Boy Club. Many of which have made it from entry level to upper management.
And I agree, managers need to manage, but what happens when they do? Unions back the emplyee and get them their job back, so the problem just continues on and on...

Most of the Asian and German plants I've been in are here in the States and they are NON Union. The "design" of these vehicles are hardly any different than that of US brands, but the methods and personnel to assemble are. They don't have to deal nearly as much with the labor issues, poor attitudes and US vs Them mentalitly as the big 3.
Honda, KIA, Nissian, BMW, Toyota are all building or have plants here in the States and Canada that run effeciently with non union labor. I don't hear much in the news reports about them having record loses each quarter.

Change will only happen when the UAW drives it themselves, or drives themselves out of a job.