Wiped Cam (NOT an MP!) => Advice solicited

[Scamp]

Well I finally started up my 383,  Sounded real good.  We followed the break-in procedure and used Hughes Extreme Pressure Oil Additive.  Ran the engine for about 15 minutes at 2000-2500 RPM.  Over the next several weeks we got the shifter cable and gauges in and I finally decided to hit the road.  Drove it about 3 miles to show off to some of my parts suppliers and helpers.  As I parked it in the driveway it would no longer shift.  It turns out that my open headers burned through the B&M shifter cable!  Several weeks later we got the cable replaced (and rerouted!) and side outlets on the headers.  Got it started again, checked the timing and adjusted the idle and drove it down to the local station for a tank full of 92 (about 2 miles total) on the way back the engine went "flat" on us.  I believe that the cam has wiped a lobe or two, but I haven't opened it up yet.

Cam = Hughes 3038 (bought a couple of years ago)
Lifters = Hughes 5001?  May be 5003
Springs = Hughes 1106

This cam was purchased by my 19 year old son, & I bought it from him when he went to an Evo.
When I asked Hughes if this was the right cam for me they said it wouldn't be for anyone else but with my plans for open road racing (Silver State Classic) it should suit me OK.  :>)

So now that I wiped that one out without getting above 40 MPH.  This time I get to pick one for me!

So first of all I'm not here to bitch about anyone's product.  It was probably my fault anyway, but this is the 1st engine I've done so I have some questions (I apologize if they sound dumb, but you know how the web is!) I want to avoid this next time as I don't have $$ to throw around.  I want to learn so I can purchase the right cam and get my car running!

When the shop did my heads they were concerned about the spring pressures (125/300, I think).  We called Hughes and I'm pretty sure that I spoke with Dave, but??  Anyway whoever it was said that was correct and not to worry.  I asked if we should use lighter springs for break-in and was told not to.  So that's what we did.

Engine size (cubic inch displacement)                                             = 383 CI
Weight of vehicle, with driver (if a driver is used)                             = 3150#
Use of vehicle (What do you expect it to do?)                                = Street and road racer, some drags for fun
Altitude of track                                                                         = 1000'
Desired ET or MPH                                                                      = ?
Present camshaft                                                                        = flattened Hughes 3038 :>)
Final gear ratio                                                                            = 3.23:1
Stall speed of torque converter                                                     = 2500
Tire height and width                                                                  = Pirelli P275/40ZR-17 93W B
Fuel type                                                                                    = 92 "oxygenated"
Static or Mechanical compression ratio                                             = ?
Iron or aluminum heads                                                                 = 346 stock with valve job and surfaced
Cranking cylinder pressure - checked with a compression gauge           = ?
Intake manifold                                                                            = Edelbrock DP4M
Header type and size                                                                    = Schumacher Tri-Y 1-5/8" stepped, 2-1/2" collector
Carburetor size                                                                             = Demon 850 street/vacuum sec w/elec choke
Rocker arm type and ratio                                                             = stock 1.5:1 non-adjustable
Will nitrous oxide be used?                                                            = I don't think so (turbo or supercharger maybe)
Cylinder head air flow numbers                                                       = stock 346?

OK so what do you guys recommend?

How far should I tear it down and what should I look for?

I looked for Schubeck lifters but I guess he doesn't do Mopar any more.

Thanks
Scamp

P.S.  I still need a recommendation on a Mopar shop in the Western Washington area.

[moparteacher]

Are you sure the cam is flat?

If you do decide on another cam you should really consider a chet herbert solid roller set-up. Lifters $220, custom ground roller cam$220, bronze gear $120. You will need to purchase a set of springs to match the new cam anyways, and the cam can be as mild or wild as you wish and still make more power than a flat tappet anything. My last roller from them was .525 lift and pulled 14Hg at idle.

Schubeck no longer makes the lifters. The patent and production has transferred to Smith Machine. I just purchased a set through FBO for $720, but for that kind of money a complete roller set-up can be had.

[codfish]

I guess you could pull the valve covers and check the lift at the pushrods to look for anything out of the normal, and then go from there before you tear it down any further.

Have you checked other things since this happened?  Timing, fuel, wiring?  Maybe it's something alot simplier.

codfish

[PureGTS]

  Start with a compression check. Hughes likes to use this as a guide for which cam to use. I personally don't understand this, but whatever. If the cam has gone flat it would show up via a compression test and, if it is a solid lifter cam it would show up by turning the engine over and observing the amount the rockers push down the valves and look for abnormalities. According to the lifters you used, it is a hydraulic cam so if the lobes on the cam have gone away you should be able to find which ones have died by looking for slop between the lifter and rocker when the lifter is on the bottom of the cam lobe (base circle). With the lifter there you can check the rocker for lash. Use the MP valve lash guide for determining which valve is position to be checked. If the lobe went away, and you haven't adjusted the valves, there should be play there as both the lobe is ground down/off and the bottom of the lifter is worn away too. Either way, there is slop to be found as hyd lifters only have a small amount of lash to give and with the lifter base damaged there could be some slop.
  Another way involes a light and some luck looking down through the head and intake gaps to look at the cam lobes through the lifter valley opening(s). A small telescopic mirror helps here. Also, look for "glitter" in the pockets between the lifter bores. Check the oil in the oil pan for metal shavings too. You have a magnetic drain pan plug, right? If you find some, you have a problem brewing. If you think you have a wiped cam lobe you can pull the lifter with a magnetic pick up and if you're careful you can remove it without dropping it and inspect the bottom of the lifter for wear. Think of it as an advanced game of "Operation". If it isn't flat, it's bad and so's the cam lobe it's rubbing against. Now you get to rip it apart.
  I see two problems with your intended use for the Silver state classic.
1) Your choice of engine puts too much weight on the front tires and suspension. You need to get the cars weight bias close to 50/50 to be effective in cornering. This means alot of ballast and then you'll need more power. Which brings us to #2...
2) Use a solid cam! Hyd's are great for their low maintenance aspect, but they stink for their performance value and valve control. A solid cam, at the same spec's as your hyd, will give you more power and torque even though the actual lift is effectively less than the numbers listed due to the lash at the valve stem. (Ex. a .500" lift hyd is .500" lift; a .500" lift solid at .020" lash is really only opening the valve .480") But a solid lifter cam has faster opening and closing ramps on the lobes and that means more power & torque. Plus you get an increase in the overall RPM range and, since you're using 3.23's, you'll need more RPM's with your choice of tires and gears, unless you have an OD unit.
  I have 245/60's and 3.23's and I get to 3000 RPM to do 70MPH. Your talking much higher speeds and a shorter tire ( I checked because I wanted to put that same size tire on my Dart, but I haven't moved the springs so it doesn't quite fit my car in the width department. But I did check it against the 245/60's for a speedo accuracy change so I know they're shorter.) I can only fit 245/45ZR17's safely.

[Steve DeTar]

When dual springs are used, I only break in engines with the outer springs, then change to duals springs.  Most oils don't have the zinc in them so you have to be carefull.  Some people when using higer than stock spring pressure use oes additive.   Sorry, Steve
Shit happens

[mrpatel]

I can feel your pain, I just went through this, this weekend my MP484 114 died on me with less than 3 - 4 hours on the motor. I am planning to pull my motor and tearing it down for inspection. I have heard that guys can just remove and replace the cam followed by several oil changes and be ok, sounds kind of risky to me. Good luck!! If you want to see a picture, I have a similar post going right now "383 valve train noise" there have been some great replys. Andrew

[Scamp]

Thanks Guys,

While I appreciate all of the advice.  I would like to stay on the subject of the cam if we can.

I will answer the non-related issues above but no more will be addressed.
I have a 2.76 Posi in it now.
A LOT of mods have been made (it would take a book to describe them all!) and balance is 51/49 without ballast
I did move the springs (.8") and I do run Pirelli P275/17 with clearance and NO wheels spacers F or R!!
I didn't ask for any advice about the SSC
I can do math
I do know how to measure
I'll leave it at that

Keith, P.E.

[fourspeed]

I didn't ask for any advice about the SSC
I can do math
I do know how to measure
I'll leave it at that

Keith, P.E.

Geez. Lighten up, Francis. 

Unfortunately, if the cam is gone, you really need to tear down the whole engine and clean out the stuff that used to be a cam lobe. I know it's not what you want to hear, but there it is. That why people get so upset about cam failures. If it was just the price of a new cam and lifters, it would be easier to live with.

I have heard of hydraulic cam problems with Mopar Performance and Hughes. I'm not saying all their stuff is bad, or that some other vendor's stuff is always better. Hughes runs a very steep ramp to maximize the "area under the curve". That, and high valve spring pressure doesn't help you. The "disappearing zinc" problem with oil has been discussed to death. Run a good oil and use an additive if you're worried about it. I would, if my car was running. 

I've used Comp Cams in the past, and done well with them. If it were me I would call their tech line - they will ask you all of these same questions in order to get you the right cam.

Generally a 383 likes a pretty mild cam compared to a 440. That can cause problems if you pick one out of a catalog based on their description, because the same cam will fit either engine, but may behave differently. The reason, as I understand it, is that a cam with high duration will lower cylinder pressure too much in a 383.

The compression ratio is very important when choosing a cam, so you'll need to figure it out. If you're into this sort of thing, you can figure it out using a burrette and plexiglass, plus a depth mic, or dial caliper. If the engine is all stock, you can look up the factory compression spec, although it will just be a ballpark figure.

Ron, aka 383man, is who I would ask. He had a real nice running 383 before he went to a stroker.

Mark

[satellite65]

Before you jump to conclusions about your cam, check out all other obvious (easy, cheap) causes such as carb, ignition, etc. If you still feel your camshaft is the culprit, it's easy enough on ALL big block mopars to remove the intake manifold and visually inspect the cam and lifters. Hughes camshafts, particularly their hydraulics, seem to have a tremendous amount of lift for a given duration as compared to other mfg's. They HIGHLY recommend using adjustable rockers with all their cams and with those specs I can see why. It's really not a bad idea with any cam. Your problem may just be collapsed lifters. If you do find lobe and/or lifter face wear, unfortunately an engine teardown is in order to properly clean out all the metal particles and inpect for other damage. It's never a good thing.

[Scamp]

It turned out to be a carb issue.  Runs great now.

Thanks

[slippery440]

It turned out to be a carb issue.  Runs great now.

Thanks

Darn good thing these guys did'nt just stick to the cam problem.

[four-40]

  I have used many Cams over the years.I have only had two go flat.Both were from Hughes Engines.I only live 10 miles from Dave Hughes and will not use anything he sells anymore.I use Comp cams now they work real well and have a great teck line.If you cam is flat enough you should get some some out of atleast one tailpipe.The best way to check for a flat cam drain oil look for shavings or glitter.Pull your intake and vavle covers.Pull your lifters out and check the bottoms.Also look in your top end for shavings and glitter.If the cams flat you need to tare down the engine completely and hot tank the block.Then put in all new bearings cam,rod and mains.