Isky never again

[moparteacher]

I feel compelled to tell you all of my recent experience with Richard Iskenderian, the son of Ed Iskenderian of Isky cams.

While inquiring about a camshaft for my 383 stock eliminator engine, it was suggested by other stock racers that the latest isky grind is making the best power and that's the cam to go with. So, I called Isky and asked to speak with someone about a stock eliminator grind. I was directed to Richard Iskenderian. I told him I needed a cam for a chrysler 383. He immediatley informed me he did not have anything for that engine. I told him I had mocked up the long block and taken maximum valve lift measurements in one degree increments for 25 degrees BTDC and 25 degree ATDC on the exhaust and intake valve so as to know where my cam needed to be so a cam could be ground that would fit the first time.

I did the mock-up prior to ordering a cam because valve-to-piston clearance in this engine is tight. The piston is a flat-top, as per NHRA rules, and the piston is .017" above deck at TDC, thus making it a tight squeeze even with very small clearances of .050" valve-to-piston. I enquired about valve lift specs for the closing exhaust ramp and the opening intake ramp. Eskerderian said he he doesn't give out that information and those are majic numbers and nobody in the building has those majic numbers.

Eskenderian then informed in great diss-interest that he only had two grinds and that engine builders know how to make them fit, implying that I was incompetent, and he had no interest in making a custom cam for my stock eliminator application.  Eskerderian  gave me the very real sense that either he couldn't give a damn, I didn't know what I was doing, or he simply wasn't interested in my buisiness.

I told him I was shocked, and I am. I have never spoken with a manufacturer, except for INDY Cylinder Heads, that was so quick to expressed rudeness and disstain for a customer seeking to do business..

So you tell me. Am I asking too much? Are cam lobe ramps a complete mystery even to the cam grinders? Am I out-of-line asking if the cam will fit before I purchase even with the valve lift window in hand? Who buys a cam ground on a 108 only to find it doesn't fit and then has it ground on a 110 only to find it doesn't fit and then buys a grind at 112 etc. etc.

Am I just nuts? There's a machine shop here in Vegas with a 15K software program to "map" cam profiles. Am I to understand that Iskerderian doesn't have a simuliar program? Or is that he just doesn't have the time for me?

So long Isky cams. Never again will I spend a dime on your product. Not because you won't grind a cam but because you were rude.

[gt]

Interesting story.
When I call manufacturers and ask questions, I truly believe that they should be/willing to answer them.
It does not always happen though, as you have just found out. I know the frustration and dissapointment that you feel.
Anyways good luck in finding a cam.

gt

[my64dart]

Hi Teach,
   Well I don't understand a lot of the technical stuff when it comes to cam grinds, but I gotta agree with you. If I'm going to spend my money on something, I sure don't want to be treated rudely. Maybe Richard didn't know what the hell you were talking about. Anyway I'm sure theres other places that would be happy to do business with you.
     Good Luck
         Jim

[Thin White Duke]

Call Comp cams.  I think the guys name is Richard Patrick? 

[496dart]

or look up Scott Brown  at    Straightline Performance  .  Give him a call

[Blvedere]

I don't think any manufacturer would go to the expense of cutting two master cam lobes for a one of a kind request.

[satellite65]

You probably confused him. This sort of thing is becoming very common with manufacturers of ALL sorts of products. Absolutely NO ONE in the company knows a damn thing about the product. All pencil (keyboard button) pushers with no product knowledge. Years ago almost everyone in the company (including the receptionists) knew at least SOMETHING and if they didn't know, they weren't ashamed to say so and would promptly direct your call to someone who did know. Just because Ed Iskenderian knew cams doesn't mean his son does but the kid should have enough business sense to let one of his engineers take the call instead of making himself look like an idiot and tarnishing the company name.

[chryco]

Sad experience that`s for sure . Give Scott a call or try Barton`s place he does a lot of S/S and Stk motor not just hemis.
   Good luck with the build !
     Chryco

[Steve DeTar]

come up with your own spec's and have someone else cut it for you.

[NYrr496]

I"ve had many conversations like that from the inner diameter of tubing in a water to oil cooler to having pistons custom made. Sometimes people are only interested in making sure you know that they know everything.

I wouldn't do business with him either. Thanks for sharing.

[west]

not taking sides by any means but from a business point of view he probably sold 3 cams off the shelf in the time he was on the phone talking to you.sometimes its easier and more cost effective to keep things simple.sucks for the consumer but seems to be alot more frequent practice these days

[NYrr496]

Know what? He's a CAM GRINDER.  It should have been a breath of fresh air to talk to someone that was going to allow him to show off his skills a little.   It's not like you were bothering a kid at a parts counter.

[west]

i agree with you completely.just making an observation

[67 dartgts]

Hello:
It is unfortante that this kind of story is becoming more prevelant in our modern HOT RUSH give it to me now society.  Sales people with
little or no traing in the products they sell, management that only shows up to work seldom making any decisions.  Loose a customer so what I'll still get paid.  Besides the guy was a jerk anyway, all he did was ask questions.
But in this case one of the most recongized and famous names in Hot Rodding was trashed by his son.  Unforgivable, there is no excuse
for rudeness to any customer.  If the man was confused by your requests, he should have attempted to have you restate excatly what you wanted.  If still confused he could have offered to seek another person in his staff, that could have helped you.
Now I don't know what you were ordering or how much it would have cost.. But I always trained my people to look at it over a year period.  So if your lost sale was $600, and he looses one a day, thats $3,000 a week or $156,000 a year. (assuming a 52 week year 3,000 x 52 =156,000, yes i'm aware there is not a full 52 business weeks.)
I don't know if he has a boss, but if I were his we would be having a discussion on my assisting him in a new career.

    Maynard

[Tyler]

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Isky used to grind some great cams for stock and superstock. Ed really knew his stuff and was very helpful to a 17 year old kid picking a camshaft for his street strip Duster. My how things change. Another hard earned rep forever tarnished in a matter of minutes

[guzzimike]

Our 383 Dart project's first Cam (& Lifters) was/were an ISKY Hydraulic.

This cam wiped all the lobes and deformed just about all lifters about 20 minutes into the break-in procedure, which we had done by the numbers..(Prime oil pump with drill, EOS, immediate start up, variable 2500RPM+ for oiling the galley, checked timing, checked Temp, etc..It was all going perfectly OK, till it fell apart )

Called Isky, got some counter person who sounded like he was 15  ...Asked them: " What's the deal with the cam..? We went by the book, and it flatted.. Every lobe was damaged."

The counter kid didn't know what to say. I then asked to speak to a Shop Manager, which I got to do (I don't know who it may have been) The Mgr did not seem all that concerned about the problem, and even implied that the fookup was very likely to be entirely our fault...this even after I explained that we followed their own break-in procedure to the letter...

At that point they also infromed me that if I wanted a new, replacement cam, there was no chance to get a new cam/ lifters from them even a bit pro-rated reduced price or anything resembling a deal...which I thought was a little chickenshyt.

I thought about telling them to stuff it, but in my mind ISKY had always been the best, and so I ordered another exact cam / lifters, making extra sure of going over ALL the specs again so that we were all on the same page...

I go to pick up the cam a couple of weeks later and it's a One-Bolt, when I had expressly indicated that I needed a 3-Bolt.. (my original, which flatted, had been a 3-Bolt, so there was a proper, existing paper trail with my name and my cam specs on it...)

At this point I was getting really concerned about who was dropping the ball at ISKY and their internal Quality Control issues, and asked to talk to someone higher up about my concerns; but instead got the run-around... so I just cancelled the Camshaft and paid only for the lifters and left.

A day or two later, I went to Chet Herbert in Anaheim, Ca, where after listening to me and asking pertinent questions about my car build, they offered to make me a one-off cam based on my requirements. I got this new cam in one week's time, for quite a bit less money than I had spent before at the other place.

We broke-in that new cam in Exactly the same way we had the ISKY a few weeks before....Difference is that this Chet Herbert cam has been running flawlessly for over two years now, in a daily driver.

ISKY, for me, was the Cam Guru back in the day, back when I was in High School in the mid 1970s, but based on my personal experience above, I think that they now leave a little bit to be desired.

YMMV



Disclaimer: I have no personal dealings or interests with the Chet Herbert company other than as a satisfied customer.

 

[dangerdawg]

sad goings on.

[ValiantOne]

All to common a story these days.

I usually end up buying from the person I "like" the best. This has seemed to serve me well. If they don't have the time of day for you on the phone, or they are rude, forget about it. I'm not spending my hard earned $'s there!

There are too many other options for me to be giving $'s to someone I don't like.

Thanks for passing along your experience with isky.

C

[NYrr496]

i agree with you completely.just making an observation

Yeah, sorry. I wasn't yelling at you, just making another point.

[flyboy01]

Isky = bad business

I will never do business with them. I had a set of rockers thatb were supposed to fit, but did not clear the head. Whick meant they only ever checked them on a single casting.

I have used and installed a few Hughes Raxcing cams, I have been happy with all of them, always come out on spec, they are always willing to suggest a good cam. Talk to them.

[lazarus]

 Jim at Racer Brown could probably help out. He's ground a few Mopar cams.

[moparteacher]

Jim Dowell at Racer Brown is grinding me a cam. I should have it in a week or so. I sent an excel spread sheet showing maximum valve lift for the intake and exhaust in 1 degree increments. We've discussed a few minor changes to the engine to order to make a near max. effort  with the duration.

The unfortunate reality of this combo (flat tops .017" ab) is that duration cannot be maximized without sacraficing serious compression. The six pack motors and early dished piston/closed chamber 383's and low compression 400's have room for 264 degrees of duration. My high compression/open chamber 383 does not have room for that much duration unless I drop the piston, raise the cylinder head, and sink the intake valve.

It's a tough combo. Jim has been very receptive, and was willing to look at my specs to find out what will fit the first time around.

So it's a trade off. I'll go with a .040" head gasket instead of a .020" and lose 1/2 a point, thin the valve head a little, sacrafice 15 to 20 degrees of duration, and run a 110 LSA instead of a 108. All that and about .050" valve-to-piston clearance. I'll also need a valve spring that will be near coil bind at maximum lift (.455 intake, .470 exhaust) with enough pressure to keep the valve from going too far.

I think I'll build a Super Stock engine next time and not have to worry about valve-to-piston clearance ever again.

Thanks for the names.

[flyboy01]

Goes to show you, for every ass losing himself business, there is someone that will gladly jump through hoops to pick up his slack. Good for you.

[NYrr496]

I used to have a big sign in my office that said If We Don't Take Care of the Customer, Somebody Else Will.

[Crazy68Dart]

Very interesting.  I cannot say that I have had the same rude factor... BUT I did send a set of solid rollers and rev kit back to them to have them inspected and freshened up.  Guess what... all I got back were the lifters (thankfully) but I never saw the rev kit again.  After numerous e-mails and a phone call CONFIRMING they forgot to ship it back, I never saw the rev kit again.

Needless to say, they have some interesting products but there are many other shops out there that I would rather give my money to.

[joesnow]

I has called Year One a few months ago about a gas tank. The women got alittle upity whaen I ask a few questions, then the guy she sent me to must of been having a bad day also. I ended up taking to management(offered me  tossmoney20% off) but I was  !mad*so I just  called Summit Racing.

[ou812]

When I do a stock eliminator head, I usually sink the intake valve .080 or better.  This not only allows for a great valve job and good strong flow #'s, but it allows more installed height at the retainer and more valve to piston clearance.
Who set the heads up?
Brian

[Thumperdart]

I`ve been using ISKY products for many years and never experienced what u went through and that definately sucks. I deal with Rod directly and my street driven dart runs low 10`s w/a stroked 400 and does it all motor w/an ISKY solid roller .680-.660 275-280 dur.@ .050. GOOD LUCK.

[moparteacher]

When I do a stock eliminator head, I usually sink the intake valve .080 or better. This not only allows for a great valve job and good strong flow #'s, but it allows more installed height at the retainer and more valve to piston clearance.
Who set the heads up?
Brian

I'm setting up the heads.

It's always been my understanding that sinking the valve destroys flow. I specifically told the cam grinder and machinist I didn't want to sink the valves. This wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

I don't want more installed height. I have too much as it is. I need to get the spring to within .040" to .050"  of coil bind over the nose to help ensure that valve doesn't float and the piston doesn't go kissin' up on my pretty valves. I'm looking at shimming the base of the spring over .1" to put the spring where I need it.
The spring binds at 1.22".
I need to be within .04" and .05" of coil bind at max lift.
That means final spring compression needs to be at 1.26 to 1.27" at max lift.
Add valve lift and the install height is 1.715" to 1.725" for the intake and 1.73" to 1.74" for the exhaust.
Valve lift is .455/.470".
So you can see where I need to close up the stock installed height. The spring manufacturer has assured me the spring will work just fine at  my installed height.

The heads have 16 new seats. The valve job resulted in no machining steps and tapers nicely into the throat. I'm very happy with the valve job. The intake port shows 248.1 cfm at .4" lift, and it's completely legal and will stay legal. I think that's a decent number considering it's an untouched 906.

Maybe I'm going about this all wrong. It's hard to tell when everythings a secret. I'll just have to continue to use my best judgement and follow sound advice which I always welcome.

I'm getting the jist that everybody accomadates the cam instead of the cam accomadating the clearances.

[mwalls]

I just got a roller cam made to the specs i wanted from isky and had no problems and my friend has had some solid cams custom ground from them. I thouht his sons name was ron, thats what he told me on the phone. He was real nice and was willing to grind what ever I wanted.