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[qkcuda]

Well, this weekend was set aside to complete the install of the MP 509/114 cam, so I could take the car to Moparfest.  I double and triple checked every operation, and took my time.  The car started on the first turn of the key and I proceeded to break in the cam.  After the car cooled down, I started it and it had a dead miss, and backfired thru the carb.  I shut it off and did the post mortem today.  I found 2 lifters with big gouges, about 4 perfect ones, and 9 showing some signs of wear.  That just leaves the one that was worn right thru.  That's right, the lifter spring was poking right out the bottom.     Before you ask, I used the proper assembly lube, GM EOS in the oil, and did not even turn over the engine once the assembly lube went on.  I have no idea what else I could have done to ensure proper breakin.  My appologies to anyone else who had the same problem, and I assumed must have missed some critical step.  Now I have to decide which way I am going with the engine, rebuild the 400, or take advantage of the stroker kits which weren't available when I started building this engine.  I guess I'll decide after I get the bottom end apart.   

[vitamindart]

i had the same thing happen with my 440 the very first time but was lucky when i pulled the motor apart it was all good just replace the cam with a comp piece in place of the 509 mp one and was up and running in no time
so i'll keep my fingers crossed the same works out for you

[mrpatel]

Sorry to hear that Dave, I'll make sure to mention this to the Mopar rep next week. They said they would compensate me to some degree for my wiped out MP484 114 cam. Dont know what yet, but I will try to help if I can. Andrew

[satellite65]

Is this something that is common to MP cams or are all manufacturers experiencing it? Also, just out of curiosity, what valve springs were you using? Not questioning your build or anything, seems you took every precautionary step. I'm just trying to make sense of all this. How come some people start fresh motors without any issues and others have to go through this?

Sorry about the engine failure. Hopefully there's not too much damage to the rest of the motor and you can clean it up and put it back together.

[qkcuda]

The valve springs were the same single springs with dampers I was using on my crane cam, which looked like new when I took it out.  I know what my wife is going to say when she gets home.  "It was running fine, why did you have to mess with it?"   

[chryco]

WTF !!!!!!
Sorry to hear that dude .
   Chryco

[FastmOp]

It happens to the best of us. call chet herbert and at least get a quote for there compleat roller conversion. it's cheeper then you think and you will never worrie about cam break in again.

[qkcuda]

It is one of the things I will be looking into, again it will depend upon how much is salvagable.  With the current pistons I was maxed out at .500 lift.

[ksdartguy]

It happens to the best of us. call chet herbert and at least get a quote for there compleat roller conversion. it's cheeper then you think and you will never worrie about cam break in again.

 
I went through this a couple years ago also with the MP .524 solid. 
Now Im roller all the way with Herbert stuff and didnt spent but about $600 for cam,lifters,springs,retainers, and locks.

Rick

[pwmax]

That sucks when that happens, and I feel for you. From the sounds of it, you couldn;t have done anything different, except put a really weak spring on for the break in, however, in this case, I highly dougbt it would have helped. If the lifters are THAT toasted, they were total junk to start with. There is no way they should go down that fast, if they were good lifters.

Thats why I try to almost insist on hyd. rollers for street engines these days. Its just not worth the hassle. I understand, they are spendy, but, how much is this whole episode going to cost now? THat much metal, from a bunch of lifters, floating around in there, and its very hard, little shards of cast iron, iron comes off in little bits, not big pieces, little bits that gets thru oil pump pick-up, works its way into the nearings and rings.

That engine needs to come out. And gone thru, and cleaned out, or you will have more problems.

Frank

[ksdartguy]

That sucks when that happens, and I feel for you. From the sounds of it, you couldn;t have done anything different, except put a really weak spring on for the break in, however, in this case, I highly dougbt it would have helped. If the lifters are THAT toasted, they were total junk to start with. There is no way they should go down that fast, if they were good lifters.

Thats why I try to almost insist on hyd. rollers for street engines these days. Its just not worth the hassle. I understand, they are spendy, but, how much is this whole episode going to cost now? THat much metal, from a bunch of lifters, floating around in there, and its very hard, little shards of cast iron, iron comes off in little bits, not big pieces, little bits that gets thru oil pump pick-up, works its way into the nearings and rings.

That engine needs to come out. And gone thru, and cleaned out, or you will have more problems.

Frank

Frank's right.
When my MP solid went it put enough metal in the oil to scratch the cyl walls and even embed in the pistons.
I had to completely rebuild with new rings and oil pump. I spent alot of time picking iron bits out of piston skirts.

Maybe if you shut right down youll be allright, but for a few oil changes, Id cut open and check the filter.

Rick

[Womanator]

Had that happen on my 67 Dart earlier this year. Mopar doesn't warrenty there cams but if you buy from Summit they will replace the cam within 30 days.

Next cam will be a roller.

[dangerdawg]

sorry to hear this.

[383man]

Dave I am real sorry to hear this.      All I can tell you is when I broke in my MP .557 cam 2 years ago I had Comp dual valve springs in my 440 which I still use.  I did not take the middle spring out as I left both springs on the head.   I used the MP cam lube that cam with the cam and good old STP that I have used for many years as assembly lube for engines. Its still in the car as I had no problems at all like that and the cam broke in just right.   And of course I brought it right up to 2500 as soon as it fired for about 20 minutes.  I am just telling you this to let you know what I used and I used Valoline 20W-50 oil.  Again I am real sorry to hear this.   Ron

[qkcuda]

Thanks for your kind wiords everyone.  The engine is definitely coming apart.  The engine probably ran for a total of 25 minutes.  The lifter that wore thru was only .065 thick on the bottom.  Makes me wonder if they had a bad batch of lifters.  I bought the cam from Mancinis, but not sure if they'd do anything for me.  If the pistons are damaged at all I will probably be going for a whole new rotating assembly.

[Cudadust]

Sorry to hear the bad news, Mopar cams are POS and I would never use one again. Cams are part of an assembly, cam, lifters and springs any thing less and you are probably going to have trouble. Hughes sellls some of the best Mopar cams on the market but thay insist on the assembly approach and it works.

[Dcuda69]

Been there done that! Only I lost a Comp. solid flat tappet after about 1k mi.(2 yrs. ago) Proper break-in,Rotella,Napa gold filters,blah,blah,blah. Pulled motor,clean-up hone,new pump,etc. Put in a solid street roller(Comp. again),springs,etc. Wish I would have done it in the first place! Car runs very well(very close cam specs.) Idle quality-better,throttle response-better. Do as Frank says,put a roller in it,hyd. or solid,put a roller in it!! This stuff has been going on for a few years and I doubt it will get any better! Just my two cents and good luck with getting things sorted out.

[gt]

Man that sucks. Sorry to hear about that.

gt

[fastback383]

Man Dave that blows big time.  I know how friggin meticulous you are ( kind of scary actually    )  so I have to believe it was  a parts failure and nothing you did.  After listening to Andrews   511 inch Dart  ( Mr.Patel)  I am a believer in the rollers . Man does that thing sound incredible.   Hopefully the damage is not too severe, the same thing happened to my brotheres motor . He got lucky and pulled it apart, cleaned everything and reringed and bearinged it .   Dave.

[fourspeed]

Ok, I'll bear that in mind when I meet with the engine guy. A solid roller in my 340 WOULD be cool anyway! 

Sorry to hear about the failure. That DOES suck - and a warranty on parts is useless anyhow. You still have the time and expense of tearing the engine down again. 

[therocks]

Ive seen and heard about too many MP cams taking a dump.In 30 years I only had one cam go bad.Guess what it was?MP.I use Crane Comp or Isky now umless its a cheap build.Then I use Summits brand.Have one that been running since 1983 in a BB.Rocky

[CudaSRT8]

Wow, that's a dirty, rotten shame.   Sorry to hear of this.   I NEVER use to have this kind of problem back when I was actively screwing around with my engines and changing cams, etc.    Given where technology has taken roller cams/lifters, I think it's the only way to go these days.   I was going to put a roller in my 440 before I ended up going with the 6.1.   'Course, the 6.1 has rollers in it, so I'm looking forward to it.   

Time to take advantage of what's available now that wasn't available when you started.   Of course, "splaining" this to the wife, that's another story... 

[guzzimike]

Sorry to hear about this...


My 383 build munched an Isky Hyd Cam & Lifters combo 20 minutes into break-in procedure....all lobes were wiped, all lifter faces were mushroomed.

Correct break-in procedure had been followed to the letter.

We got lucky in that the bearings were OK, so we shytcanned all the damaged parts, got a coupla Gallons of Marvel Mystery Oil and washed down the engine internals to get rid of any and all swarf.

Got a Chet Herbert cam and all is good. This was over two years ago.

I wish you the best.

[A13Dart]

Bad news.  I would say stay away from MP cams, too many problems to be a coincidence.  Roller is the only way to go these days, no one can realistically argue this anymore.

[steel city dart]

How many of you guys are running hydraulic cams without problems? I have 2 motors almost ready to go both with comp cams hydraulics
a 440 with a 292/501  and a small block chevy with a 280/480. I guess i could switch to a roller in the 440 because i havent got the springs for the heads yet . will i have to get a new timing chain or does the rollers come with the  one bolt type? The sbc 350 is ready to start just waiting on the torque converter. i built this sbc for my brother i hate to tell him " we have to take this apart and i need 600 more dollars"  but if im taken to big of a chance on having  a cam go bad then i guess i will switch . i have been working on my 440 for about 6 years and im so close to finally being done now this 

[ksdartguy]

My last comp cam was a the DEH 275 it was a 465/485 lift and I ran it a long time with no problems.
I just had single springs and ran Oreilly oil.
Next I went MP solid 284/528L, that one with a single spring wiped on me during breakin.
I think on a mild grind with light enough spring pressure and run comp's extreme pressure lube with the oil,
probably be fine. If they are allready built, Id run them.
On a new build I wont run anything else but a roller.
Chet Herberts are very reasonable. Thats just me though.

Rick

[flyboy01]

Ok, you guys are making me real nervous, I am getting ready to fire my 383 soon with a mopar .509 cam. The cam itself was made in 2000, but dont want to wipe out my engine. Should I invest in the coolface lifters? Would going to a solid cam be any better? I cant really spend the dough for a roller, but I cant afford to rebuild tyhe engine again. What should I do?

[Crazy68Dart]

Oil, shmoil...  I know, the ingredients have changed, yeah, yeah, I get it.  When you read about guys that know what the hell they are doing, and STILL have problems, it is pretty obvious to me that the parts are junk, i.e. soft metal on lobes, lifters, or both.  Typical crap parts, and shotty quality control, just like everything else these days. A bunch of BS IMHO.

[ksdartguy]

I think Frank covered it well. He recomended the cool face lifters and
EOS or Joe Gibbs oil on break in. It can be done. On a mild engine Id consider it.
For my use, I wont go back though. Rollers all the way from now on.

Rick

[satellite65]

If it's the lack of zinc in the oil, then why are people still having problems when running Rotella and additives such as EOS and Comp break-in lube? I don't think it's the oil. I agree with Crazy68, inferior quality parts.

[mrpatel]

When my MP 484 cam wiped out last month, I checked the hardness on the lifters at work and thought it to be alittle low for the application. I have yet to cross section to see how thick the case hardening is. I am still waiting for my Mopar rep to respond to my claim. If he denyes it, I will cross section the lifters and cam, check the harness again and have samples of the parts placed in our electron microscope at work to check the material properties. Does anyone know what the hardness should be and how thick the case hardening should be? Better yet, does anyone know of the drawing requirements that a Chrysler quality rep would inspect from? qkcuda, any chance of getting one of your lifters to compair to mine for testing? You could pass it off to fastback383 at Moparfest next weekend if I dont make it up.

[qkcuda]

Andrew, do you want one of the gouged ones, or one that was just starting to go, or do you want one that isn't showing any wear?  I'm asking because the worn ones may not have any of the hardening left. 

[flyboy01]

When my MP 484 cam wiped out last month, I checked the hardness on the lifters at work and thought it to be alittle low for the application. I have yet to cross section to see how thick the case hardening is. I am still waiting for my Mopar rep to respond to my claim. If he denyes it, I will cross section the lifters and cam, check the harness again and have samples of the parts placed in our electron microscope at work to check the material properties. Does anyone know what the hardness should be and how thick the case hardening should be? Better yet, does anyone know of the drawing requirements that a Chrysler quality rep would inspect from? qkcuda, any chance of getting one of your lifters to compair to mine for testing? You could pass it off to fastback383 at Moparfest next weekend if I dont make it up.

You should also compare it to an original 60's or 70's stock lifter to see what changed.