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[mrpatel]

When my MP 484 cam wiped out last month, I checked the hardness on the lifters at work and thought it to be alittle low for the application. I have yet to cross section to see how thick the case hardening is. I am still waiting for my Mopar rep to respond to my claim. If he denyes it, I will cross section the lifters and cam, check the harness again and have samples of the parts placed in our electron microscope at work to check the material properties. Does anyone know what the hardness should be and how thick the case hardening should be? Better yet, does anyone know of the drawing requirements that a Chrysler quality rep would inspect from? qkcuda, any chance of getting one of your lifters to compair to mine for testing? You could pass it off to fastback383 at Moparfest next weekend if I dont make it up.

[qkcuda]

Andrew, do you want one of the gouged ones, or one that was just starting to go, or do you want one that isn't showing any wear?  I'm asking because the worn ones may not have any of the hardening left. 

[flyboy01]

When my MP 484 cam wiped out last month, I checked the hardness on the lifters at work and thought it to be alittle low for the application. I have yet to cross section to see how thick the case hardening is. I am still waiting for my Mopar rep to respond to my claim. If he denyes it, I will cross section the lifters and cam, check the harness again and have samples of the parts placed in our electron microscope at work to check the material properties. Does anyone know what the hardness should be and how thick the case hardening should be? Better yet, does anyone know of the drawing requirements that a Chrysler quality rep would inspect from? qkcuda, any chance of getting one of your lifters to compair to mine for testing? You could pass it off to fastback383 at Moparfest next weekend if I dont make it up.

You should also compare it to an original 60's or 70's stock lifter to see what changed.

[mrpatel]

Dave one of each will be ok. I have 16 of my own to compair to if needed.
Flyboy - Not a bad idea, if you come accross an old lifter to check let me know. Andrew

[flyboy01]

I have a few you can have. Let me know where you want it.

[68_Val_Sedan]

can't wait to see the reuslts of this test .... thanks for taking the lead Mr patel ...

[pwmax]

One thing you guys can do, is find someone with a Rockwell tester. It looks like a valve spring pressure tester sorta, that tests the hardness of metal. Have them test all 16 lifters, on the edge, not right on the middle, as the lifter is convex shaped, and there will be a small little dimple there. If you find some soft lifters, send em back for new ones. Upper 50's to low 60 range is what they should be.

Frank

[340fyd]

That's messed up!  I'm sorry, I'm getting ready to fire a fresh 440 with a small summit cam.  Ya, I'm tripping on it.

[flyboy01]

I think I am going to trash all lifters I have and buy a set of the Hughes Cool Face lifters. Hopefully the little bit extra oil will help.

[mrpatel]

One thing you guys can do, is find someone with a Rockwell tester. It looks like a valve spring pressure tester sorta, that tests the hardness of metal. Have them test all 16 lifters, on the edge, not right on the middle, as the lifter is convex shaped, and there will be a small little dimple there. If you find some soft lifters, send em back for new ones. Upper 50's to low 60 range is what they should be.

Frank

The original one I check from mine was in the low 40's.
Flyboy, I will send you a shipping address later this week. My girlfriend (the Summit express!) will be in the Cleveland area again, maybe you can send one there to avoid an additional cost and issues with the border. It will probably take a few weeks to have Mine, qkcuda & yours hardness tested and material properties checked, since work is pretty busy right now.

[qkcuda]

I think I am going to trash all lifters I have and buy a set of the Hughes Cool Face lifters. Hopefully the little bit extra oil will help.

Has anyone used the cool face lifters?  Are those the ones with the small oil hole in the bottom?  I know I shouldn't even be thinking about it, but the roller cam would also require new adjustable rocker gear so it adds up.  My heads also have great low to mid range flow, but stall around 450  lift, so a high lift roller won't gain me much.

[steel city dart]

do they make a cool face for hydraulic cams ? i can only find them for solid cams . anybody have a part #.

[qkcuda]

You're right, I looked them up and they are only solids.  Oh well, back to the drawing board.   

[fourspeed]

My heads also have great low to mid range flow, but stall around 450  lift, so a high lift roller won't gain me much.

If you really wanted to, you could get a solid roller ground to your specs. I think the hydraulic rollers are not real high lift either.

[steel city dart]

You're right, I looked them up and they are only solids. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

crower has a lifter called the "cam saver" says they deliver 20-30% more oil to the lifter face . i dont now if they have a hole in them or not

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CRO%2D66031X3%2D16&autoview=sku

[ksdartguy]

My heads also have great low to mid range flow, but stall around 450  lift, so a high lift roller won't gain me much.

If you really wanted to, you could get a solid roller ground to your specs. I think the hydraulic rollers are not real high lift either.

I ran a Chet Herbert solid roller. A nice piece- 228/236 @ .050 .520/.530L tight lash. Smooth idle good performance
for just a little more than a flat tappet.

Rick

[flyboy01]

What did you pay for your setup?

I guess I did not notice that the coolface were solids. Crap.

[qkcuda]

My heads also have great low to mid range flow, but stall around 450  lift, so a high lift roller won't gain me much.

If you really wanted to, you could get a solid roller ground to your specs. I think the hydraulic rollers are not real high lift either.

I ran a Chet Herbert solid roller. A nice piece- 228/236 @ .050 .520/.530L tight lash. Smooth idle good performance
for just a little more than a flat tappet.

Rick

I'd be very interested in more info on that cam.  My old Crane was 222/234 467/494.  It ran well in my 400, and made 415 HP and 450 lb/ft of torque, but I wanted more top end.  I know roller specs are deceiving because there is more area under the curve. Is it in your current stroker or was it in the blower motor?  I am thinking I have the most options with a 3.75 stroke 451.  Would that be enough cam?  I would like to end up with close to 500 HP this time, and as much torque as possible.

[ksdartguy]

I traded that one to a buddy when I stroked my motor.
I went larger Crower (262/266 @ .050, .686/.696L),
and he wanted a street cam for a 500in. driver.
He had the Crower, so we traded.

Call Donnie at Chet Herbert. They can grind one for around $200. Lifters about the same.
Springs and retainers $100
http://www.chetherbert.com/newchet.html

Rick

[DarrenM]

Brings back memories of the stock cam in my T3 Daytona IROC R/T.  Granted, sounds like a lifter problem here, but the case hardening issue was around with the R/T's cam in the early 90's.  Maybe it's time for Mopar (and Chrysler) to find a GOOD vendor for engine parts, not the cheapest

[qkcuda]

ksdartguy,  Has your friend run the 500 with that cam yet?  Just wondering how it would act in a bigger engine.

[guzzimike]

Call Donnie at Chet Herbert. They can grind one for around $200. Lifters about the same.
Springs and retainers $100
http://www.chetherbert.com/newchet.html

Rick

+1 on Donnie at Chet Herbert. I went to their Anaheim,Ca store and was directed by the counter guys to the Machine shop in back to ask for Donnie.

 First and only time I saw Donnie, he was turning a cam on a lathe. I saw this white haired guy in his 60s, wearing bib coveralls, focusing intently on his work.. I knew right then in there that this was no prepubescent, pimple faced counter Jockey with a Computer Database at his fingertips and not much real world knowledge....So I just stood there, watching the man doing his thing and not interrupting.

When he was done, I stepped up and introduced myself. Old School...Ya Know..?

I talked to him about building me a cam. After I told him my sob-story about my previous flatted cam/lifters and then gave him all my wants and needs from a cam and the specs for my car, he asked me all sorts of pertinent questions I had not thought of. BTW, neither had the guys who sold me the previous Cam...Go Figure..

Anyhow, after we talked it out,  Donnie told me: "I know EXACTLY the cam you need.." and he ran off into his office, only to come out a second or two later leafing through and old , dog-eared spiral notebook with all sorts of handwritten notations and mathematical formulas and drawings. It also had untold number of cam specs listed in columns..Donnie looked and looked, mumbling

" Where is it, where is it...."

Till finally he sez to me: "Look, I can't find it right now, but I know what you need. Trust me;  I'll have it ready in one week and I'll Parkerize it for you at no extra charge."



And that was it, and Donnie was Right. I am extremely happy with the "Bang for the Buck" and performance envelope of my Chet Herbert Cam, and will be going back to Donnie and Chet Herbert for all my future Cam needs. 

I know that you guys don't know me from shynola, but FWIW, I recommend the Chet Herbert crew very highly. Good People, no bullshyt, no attitudes, no Boutique store.... Just good old fashioned Motorheads from waaaaay back..



Disclaimer: I have no interests or connection with Donnie or Chet Herbert Racing other than as a satisfied customer.

[qkcuda]

mike, did you go flat tappet or roller?  did you ever find out the specs?

[guzzimike]

mike, did you go flat tappet or roller?  did you ever find out the specs?

3-Bolt Flat Tappet Hydraulic.

Model # H-306

Duration (advtsd): 280

Duration @ .050 : 224

Valve Lift : 0.459

Lobe Separation : 108



I'll be getting a complete Roller Cam set up from Chet Herbert when I get the 438 Stroker Kit, in about a year's time. Instead of doing it piecemeal (read: half ass) as I did this build, next time I will build it in concert. Live and learn.

As it is now, the current set up is not what Donnie had specked the cam for originally. I changed a few things  after the engine fired up and ran for a few months on the Donnie-Cam.

For example, I replaced the 742 / 3.23 SG with a 489 / 3.91 SG ratio gears, and also installed a 2800 RPM Stall Torque Converter in place of the original 1800 Stall.

IOW, the cam is probably a touch on the "Mild" side at this time...But it works well enough, and since it's a Dedicated Daily Driver, I'm cool with it.

One thing I gotta take care of right away for sure, though..Next week I'm taking the car to California Perfornance Transmission (Art Carr) to get the TF's Valve Body and Governor set up to shift correctly.

Right now it lags a bit  ( 1 to 1.5 sec ) when I shift Manually from 1- 2 @ 5800 RPM (Shift Light setpoint) ... and the 2 - 3 up-shift just does not happen. I have the MSD rev Limiter set at 6400 RPM, so I'm safe, but it's ugly when you hit the Limiter as you're about to bitch slap into the dirt the punk in a SVO Mustang in the next lane...

I'll throw the shifter into 3rd at 5800 RPM, and I feel the lever hit the Gate, but the Trans just won't up-shift...Correction, it does do it sometimes, but only about 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 times. That's not good.

It all shifts in OK sequence when I leave it in DRIVE   and hammer it from a Brake Stall...But when I wanna go apeshyt manual shifting, it gets a mind of its own and goes it's own way.. .

BTW, Kickdown works perfectly.

Anyhow, right now I have way too many other irons in the fire to mess with stuff that's actually running OK, as is the case with my existing 383 mill...

It'll be OK like this till it's time to do it correctly.

[qkcuda]

I got the heads off today, and there are score marks in the cylinders when you shine a light on them, but I can't feel anything with a fingernail.  I think it may clean up with a light hone.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[FastmOp]

I'd clean everything real well and use a rabbit turd hone on it and stick it back together. Make sure you clean the skirts of the pistons well and everything else you can and you should be in good shape.

[qkcuda]

It's coming apart for a complete new reciprocating assembly.   

[mrpatel]

Did you manage to hand off a lifter to Dave last weekend?

[qkcuda]

Yep, Dave has 4 lifters, two damaged ones and two that looked OK.  I couldn't find any stockers for you to test.  Thanks again.

[mrpatel]

cool, Ill take a drive up to see him later this week and bring them in for testing next week.