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[qkcuda]

I got the motor apart on the weekend and took the block over to the machine shop.  They think it will clean up at .040 over, so I told them to go ahead and hone it to be sure before I order anything.  There is only one cylinder, the one directly below the lifters which failed, that had some galling.  If necesssary I would sleeve that one if the rest can be saved at .040 over.  I have been looking at my options, and after finding out the prices for machine work on used parts, the 440 source kit keeps looking better.  The shop is going to get me some prices on rods and pistons through their suppliers, and we'll go from there.  maybe I'll end up with a 500 after all, since they are all the same price.  The limiting factor would be my heads for now, but that would be an easy upgrade for later.   

[mrpatel]

Here are the initial results, as you can see from the cross section taken. The material (looks like a casting!), it looks very porous and looks like it has several impurities in it. Also note the edge, it has no case hardening. I will get the material results and micro hardness probably tomorrow.

[mrpatel]

Hi Dave, i may have some good news, I manage to get to speak with one of the Mopar performance engineers today and he has forwarded our concerns to mopar performance. I followed up immediately with a phone call to 1 888 528 HEMI and spoke with Evan (there are only two people that manage this line). He had just receive my forwarded e-mail from the engineer to investigate. He was a bit abrubt, until he opened the attachments and then went on to say that they have been aware of this problem for sometime and were monitoring it for the past while. He did not sound to convincing that he would be willing to shell out cash or parts, but did say he would deffinately share the info with the Senior engineer on his team and determine the next course of action. He did say that we had done a great job with the cross sectioning and lab work, which would make his life and our claim a lot easier (what evr that means). I or we may need to send in our cams and and lifters to them for futher testing. I will keep you posted. By the way, the lifters are not case hardened they are only Flame hardened on the face of the lifter. He did seam confident that they would be able to identify the root cause of the problem.

[68_Val_Sedan]

   good info ... thanks for keeping us posted ...

[mrpatel]

No problem, I forgot to mention the hardness. I had initially tested the lifter on the sides using a Rockwall test, which came in low, which could have been due to deflection. When we did a micro hardness test, it came in really high around 68! This means the material is hard and brittle and would explain the chipped edges around the edges of the base of the lifter. Maybe it is because the material is porous and it is essentially "imploding?" or the material from the edges of the lifter are causing the wear? I would think that anything that would cause the liter to wear would have to be as hard or harder than the lifter. I’m not sure that spring pressure could cause this. I think now that we know it is only flame hardened on the bottom face, I may check a good lifter and cross section it longitude and check the hardness there. Mopar said that I shouldn't spend anymore time testing at this point. We will have to wait and see what they say.

[Steve DeTar]

It seems "we" are being phased out....the roller lifter is in.   When it break in a cam, it's a toss up.   When checking things like when setting the valves.  I try to make sure they spin in the lifter bores.  I have a set of heads built  that have kight springs to do this..  Were the crown of your lifters right?  Make sure then spin, if not you will have a problem.    Sometimes a ball hone threw each lifter bore will fix it.  Or sleeving each lifter will "index" the lifter bore to alignment issues.  I am sorry for your lose,  DeTar

[qkcuda]

Andrew, Thanks for keeping the pressure on.  Let me know if I can do anything else to help.

Steve, I did make sure that the lifters rotated freely in the bores when I installed them.  I also made sure I didn't get any assembly lube on the lifter sides, just the faces, as I heard that could cause them not to rotate.  As far as whether they did rotate or not there was no way of telling once I buttoned everything up to start it for break in.

[mrpatel]

I spoke with the 1-888-528-HEMI guys again, still not overly impressed. They are not engineers, nor do they claim to be, but they are there to filter and field calls through the proper channels. Here is what they are willing to offer, if I send them in my cam and lifters, they will give me a cam of my choice as a "show of good faith", but will not accept liability. I think this is BS and still have avoided the obvious problem. In the micro photos above, it shows obvious sings of voids and silica (poor raw material). I did manage to speak with one of the engineers after my call and he did mention that Mopar has been considering to stop selling cams due to a pretty weak supply chain. The engineer was actually very cool, but is unable to do much else other than tell me that it has been a hit and miss problem for a number of years and really could not offer much else other than rollers are the way to go. He did say that some of the suppliers are very poor and even made a comment regarding the processing of the lifters, "the flame harding process, may be done with an egg timer, while the guy has gone to read the paper in the can", funny and may be reality, but doesn't help too much. I think they are just as frustrated as we are, great proven designs and engineering, only to fall short to the guy with the budget and check book at Corporate office. I'm not sure that I'm any further ahead, other than the fact that they are willing to replace my defective cam and lifters with the same "may and or contain" cam and lifters that just caused me (& you) all this grief. Dave, if you are hoping to get anything, out of this, I would suggest that you call them ASAP and reference my claim and lifters and tell him that you are the "other guy" with the MP509 114 cam with the same issue. I will send in my cam and lifters next week to Mopar and paint them red and follow up a call with the engineer to keep an eye open for them when they cross his desk and see what they say.  Still seams like an obvious problem that is driven by low cost.

[Thin White Duke]

Mopar cams and lifters are junk.  Try the Comp cams nitrided cores if you want to stay flat.

[satellite65]

How much extra does Comp Cams charge for the Nitriding process? Does this need to be ordered directly through Comp? I haven't seen that option offered in any of the distributors websites (i.e.- Summit, Jegs, etc.)

[qkcuda]

Andrew,  I am willing to send the cam and lifters to them, but what would I do with another one of their cams?  I certainly wouldn't use it and I couldn't in good conscience sell it to anyone.  I would rather take a credit towards parts I could use.  I don't know whether they would consider such a thing.  Maybe you could PM me about sending the stuff back at the same time so that it all gets dealt with at once.  I may have to make a trip to Smithville anyway to pick up the other lifters from Dave and we could hook up.
Dave

[mrpatel]

I agree with you, I do not want another one of their cams either. He did say he would ask if they could credit me or offer some other parts and get back to me next Tuesday. I asked if I could send in your parts at the same time and they told me no and then went on to say that not everone is garrented for a return.

Shipping address is:

Mopar Performance
Attn: Evan
34115 West 12 mile
Farmington Hills Mi
48331

I will send my 15 1/2 lifters and cam back sometime next week.

[qkcuda]

I just got through to Evan at the tech line.  He said I should wait until after next Wednesday, until they decide what they are going to do for you and then call back.  Doesn't sound too promissing at this point.

[mrpatel]

I know, but I will not give up. I still have the phone number for the head engineer for all of these guys. I will call him once they have had a chance to review my cam and do their job. It will not be resolved by Wednesday, trust me. Let me know when you are going to Smithville.

[mrpatel]

I agree with you, I do not want another one of their cams either. He did say he would ask if they could credit me or offer some other parts and get back to me next Tuesday. I asked if I could send in your parts at the same time and they told me no and then went on to say that not everone is garrented for a return.

Shipping address is:

Mopar Performance
Attn: Evan
34115 West 12 mile
Farmington Hills Mi
48331

Ok 3 busniss trips later and I have the cam ready to send back to Michigan. Sorry it has taken me so long, but I PROMISE it will ship out tomorrow. I figure I should get my butt in gear before there is no one there to answer the phone. Anyway, they promised me a cam at the least, I will try for more. Kim said he may have a use for a MP cam, so if I can get the one he wants I will sell it to him. I still have your lifter here on my mantle, let me know if you are sending your cam in aswell. It wouldn't hurt to send it in around the same time. Andrew

I will send my 15 1/2 lifters and cam back sometime next week.

[mrpatel]

Well good news and bad news, The Good News: Mopar agreed with my concerns and felt that I should be sent a replacement cam of my choice. The Bad News: Due to the financial situation at Chrysler, they have been told not to free issue or warrenty any part of any kind until further notice. So after all that, I manage to get a yep, wish I could help and you should expect your faulty cam back later next week (Plus I'm out anouth $22 bucks for shipping and will, probably have to pay for a brokerage fee to get it back to Canada). My dealer did say he would try to help some, but the Depot guys dont give a SH&t when it comes to "P" part numbers.  If I get anywhere there, I will let you know. I tried!! Andrew

[mrpatel]

Dave - Called the dealer today, he told me that they let go of all of the area reps except one and laid off another 20 or more people at the depot last week. Not looking to good. The dealer is going to make it up to me by selling me super stock springs and frame connectors at cost (lower than what I can buy from Summit and in CDN with no shipping). Now I don't even think I will even get my cam back. Let me know if you need anything from Mopar in the next week and I will try to slide it in with my order if it helps at all. Andrew

[qkcuda]

Thanks Andrew, I'll send you a PM.