roll cage and rear firewall questions

[hamesdart]

ok i have a 69 dart im building and i want to see the consensis on the nhra rules
Cage requirments - car probly wont go under 10's as long as i own it.
rear firewall
my battery is in the trunk.
preferences? aluminum? steel? weld in or screw on? whats legal?

this is the build
1969 dodge dart
-ENGINE
1968 440 hp
10-1 comp
stock 906 heads w/mopar performance springs
509 lift cam
holley 750
holley elect fuel pump
holley street dominator intake
msd 6a ignition
msd billit distributer
ss blaster coil
high volume oil pan/pump
-TRANS
727
reverse manuel valve body
3000 stall
-REAREND
8-3/4
3.91 w/suregrip

-BODY
Shaved fenderwells
hemi hood scoop
centerline rims/mickey thomsons

-SUSPENSION
super stock springs
koni adjustable shocks in rear
comp 90-10 adjustables up front

i want it to be set up to nhra and yes im buying a book soon
But i suppose super stock is the class i should be building for?
if so what is needed?
other questions..
mini tub legal in superstock? along with relocated springs?
fiberglass fenders legal? how much would that devalue the car in general? opinions..
hemi super stock aluminum solid mount seats ok?

[signet]

i think you will end up in the ET classes like sportsman or superpro.

the rear bulkhead has a minimum thickness,how it is held in place is not mentioned.

the battery has to be held down with a certain minimum size and amount of fastners.

engine kill switch that is accessed from the outside of the car.

longer wheel studs when or if you switch to aluminum rims.

but get the book there are lots of little things that have to be done depending on what you do to the car.

[coors00]

.024 steel, or .032 6061 t-6 alum. and SS ain't going to happen, maybe modified stock, if they still have it. (1993 book)

[CA Duster 383]

You MIGHT get the car to fit into SSGT/?A depending on how the weight falls.

I think it is you take the heavies weight of your year Dart with the biggest motor available
In my case that is a 1974 360 Duster which must weight 3200-3300 lbs then divide that
number by the claimed year of the motor for HP claimed (I have a 383) so maybe a 1970
383 would be about 335 hp = the GT class.

This info is available on the NHRA website, just do some hunting around.

What I came up with was SSGT/FA for my 1974 Duster 383 which would mean I would
be butting heads with someone like Don Little (1970 Challenger 383 W/TA hoodscoop)
and to be truethfull I don't have that much money to invest in the project.  Try over
$30K for a competetive motor.

But it may work out, the #1 champion for 2007 was Darrel Smith of Pro Trans with a 1969
Dart w/440 in SS and that car fly's

It's that old aditge "Speed Costs, How Fast Do You Want To GO??"

[hamesdart]

well im new to the nhra scene but why would superstock be so out of the question?
I mean i guess if its because the poeple who run in super stock are fast i see they have
ss catagories from like 9-13 seconds.
i know its hard to outrun money, but im not worried about that.
Im 19 with a son living with my wife and him on our own and i still am building this 69 dart
and i just built a 65 dart running driving/reliable/fullbody all trim there for 250$$$
So if i even make it to the track and run superstock,win or loose i dont care.
im happy to be here

[dartracer]

I use to run superstock and belive me it aint cheap. A 69 Dart with a 440 factors into SS/FA or SS/GA with G having a 10. flat index if I remember rite. I would run that car in the ET classes, alot more fun and a lot less money to get inthe gate. Don't get me wrong Superstock is a lot of fun but realy need to think outside the box. Because you need to make every part on the car work with every other part. My car when I was running SS/I

[CA Duster 383]

In addition to what the previous poster said, there is more to running both Stock and SuperStock NHRA racing.
I ran a 1973 Duster 340 in the early 80's as a I/SA it was not cheap even back in the 80's.

When you run as a bracket racer you show up on a Sat or Sunday, pay your $20 and go pass tech inspection.
Then you get in as many runs in the day or evening as possible, maybe 5, 6 runs.  Lots of cheap fun.

Ok, so now you want to run Stock or Superstock, you join NHRA (about $65 per year) then you need a compition
license (another $25 per year).

Oh yes to be even a little competitive your car will need to be able to run at a minium 0.75 tens under the index
to be actually competitive you will need to be able to run 1.0 to 1.3 under your index.

Now it's time to attend a few points races in your Division.  You will be there for Friday/Saturday/Sunday, it will
cost you about $75 to enter.  You will get one or two time runs on Friday, maybe one more on Sat morning, then
in the afternoon you will have first round.  If you win your first round, then you sit around until Sunday morning
for second round and so on into the afternoon.  If lucky enough to make it into the quarters you will have some
win money coming to you.  If you loose after one or two rounds you can go home.

You have spent now spent the gas to travel to the race, motels (unless you bring your own RV) meals, all the
normal costs of race fuel (about $6-7 per gallon) you have to run the legal race gas that will pass inspection and
they will weight your car and check your fuel after each run. By pass either and you are disqualified.

Ok now you've attended 4 to 6 points meets, now you have enough points to attend a National meet, will run
you around $200-250 to enter (maybe more now days) and you will need to be there by Wed morning to park
and go through tech inspection, Thur and Fri you will get one or two time trials per day (if two in a day they will
be one in the morning and one in the afternoon), again motels and meals, and on Saturday first round of eliminations
and so on for the weekend.  Again unless you can get into the quarters you are still out of the money.

Most guys I know who race NHRA Stock or Superstock say it costs them close to $1000 for a long weekend of
racing (Wed to Sunday)

So how many days of vacation do you have available each year??

I'm not trying to be hard on you, but I've been there and done that and I at 60 yr old can not really afford to
spend that kind of money on a constant basis anymore.

[CA Duster 383]

So OK now we know some of the costs of compition.

What are some other choices?

The Summit Series is another choice, yes it is dial your own bracket racing.

The series at least out here in SOCAL is run about one Sunday a month at Irwindale Raceway,
cost I believe is $50 for the day.  You can run pump gas I believe.

Oh if you still want to run Stock or Superstock you would also need to upgrade your rearend
to either 4:56 or 4:88 and in time upgrade to a spool and aftermarket axles, figure $1000 for
that upgrade.

Oh how are you going to get the car to the track?  In race tirm it is no longer street drivable,
so a truck or RV and a trailer to haul it all.

After all I've written, if you still feel you want to run Superstock, then I strongly recommend
you go to a points meet, look at the cars in the pits, talk to the car owners/drivers and ask
questions.  Most all the guys/gals are very friendly and willing to answer questions.

And as always the only stupid question is the one NOT asked!

[hamesdart]

alrite i see i see.
When i first started researching classes i though ss was what my car would run in.
Now actually running the car is about 4 months away but i figured now im going to finish the frame work
like cage..rear firewall...fuel cell..frame connectors.
when i do it all i should build it to a class.
On the nhra website i saw that the "ss" class had times from like 9-13 seconds.
and i thought that meant if your car was 13 seconds you run in the 13 second bracket of ss
not that if you have this weight and this motor you run in the 10 second bracket.
Thanks for the help guys!!! keep the info goin!

[CA Duster 383]

OK, congradulations, now lets answer some of your original questions for running brackets.

Fiberglass front fenders --- YES
Mini tube/move rear springs in --- YES

In a Duster body I have the advantage of much bigger rear wheel well opening than the
Dart body, so it only requires a small 2 inch cut to the front leading edge of the wheel
opening for tire clearance and I did not move the springs in at all.

I run 275/60/15 BF TA street tires (no clearance problems) on the street and 30/9/15
MT slicks for racing.  Yes I could run a shorter slick, but I buy them from Stock Eliminator
racer friends for about $100 - 150 a set with plenty of wear left in them vs $400 for a
brand new set of slicks, I am on a budget you know.

You will need to replace (both front and rear) wheel studs with 3 inch race studs, that
will also require open ended lug nuts.

I just had the fronts done on my new rotors, $40+ each rotor at Autozone, then $85 for
studs and labor to press old one's out and new one's in (done at a machine shop).

You will also need to do the back axels too.  I have cut down/resplined "C" body axles with
the 3 inch studs on the rear with 4:56 with a powerlock rear end (clutch type, not cone).

In time I know I will need to upgrade to aftermarket axles and a spool, yes you can run a
spool on the street (NOTE: only in dry weather) There we are back at that $1000 expense.

YES do get the NHRA rulebook (I have the 2008 book in front of me) and do read it because
the rules also apply to bracket racing.

You will still have to pass tech inspection even for bracket racing.

Main things they look at:

Brake pedal, you must have a firm pedal

Battery location, if in the trunk it must be in a NHRA legal metal/alum box with lid (Summit/Jegs
both sell a couple of versions for $140 to $180) and you must have a positive power shut off
mounted on the outside of rear of car (on body somewhere between taillights or on the bumper
and it needs to be marked ON and OFF.

Driveshaft loop, mounted no more than 6 inches to the rear of front U-joint and be made of 1/4 inch
steel (Summit $25) and bolted to bottom of floor pan.

Seat belts (your car) should be 5 point harness ($85 to $125 depending on mfg) and they are only
good for 2 years, then need to be replaced (again $85 plus) or you can send them back to the mfg
to be rewebed for about $40.

Helmet, must have a date of mfg and they are usually only good for 5 years then need to be replaced.

Fire proof jacket (depending on how fast your car can run) again Summit about $65.

OK now your ready to go racing.

[west]

quote:  You will need to replace (both front and rear) wheel studs with 3 inch race studs, that
will also require open ended lug nuts.

is this a new rule?why do you need long studs on the front?

[CA Duster 383]

OK, lets see if I can explaine.

"Per the 2008 NHRA rule book, page #85 section 5:2 wheels, the thread engagement on all wheel studs
to the lug nut, or lug bolts to wheel hubs, must be equivalent to or greater than the diameter of
the stud/bolt.  Length of the stud/bolt does not determine permissibility. 
(Example: A 7/16-inch stud must be thoroughly engaged through the threads in the hex portion
of the lug a minimum of 7/16-inch.)"

What this all means is the tech inspector wants to see that the stud show threads at the end of
the lug nut.

This interpatation is up to each inspector, that is why most of us go with the 3" front stud so there
is plenty of threads showing.

I would hate to pay my $20 to run brackets, then not pass tech inspection and only get to spectate (normally $10).

I hope I have explained this correctly.

[Womanator]

My .02 you can do your own studs on your car in the garage.$22 a wheel for the studs.in Oregon

[coors00]

Let me show my age; I thought it was still 2 threads showing...

[CA Duster 383]

Yes, you can install your own 3 inch studs, they cost $25 a set give or take.

I do NOT own a press so I paid to have it done.

[67 dartgts]

Hello:

 

Battery location, if in the trunk it must be in a NHRA legal metal/alum box with lid

CA Duster 383 said that.
 The way I read that is you must use a box if you don't[u][/u] have a rear firewall of.024 inch steel or .032 aluminum (including rear package tray.)
Correct me if i'm wrong here.

 My advice for what its worth.  Hang out at the nearest strip see what is going on in the classes your intrestered in.  Why would you want to build a car for a  class you know little about?  Find a couple guys that have a car you would like to pattern yours after.  Then pick their brains on what works and what don't.....It may take a bit some racers are hard to get next to ...but sincere compliments and honest questions are the best ammo for the stand off guys.  If they still ignore you move on, they aren't worth wasting time on, note who they are so when you get your car you can kick their ass. 
 Join the NHRA yeah its costly if your on a budget, but you get the rule book, and other perks.   
 I agree that the best situation for you may be a brackett car.  You can build pretty much what you want, but rember in brackett racing consictency wins.  You don't need be faster than every one else, but you got to be sharp on the tree.
Rember in brackett there are at least 6 ways to win without going faster than the other guy.

     Maynard

[gt]

Hey Maynard, could you list at least six ways of winning in brackets, curious.


Thanks
gt

[67 dartgts]

Hello:
  Hey sure GT.
  1.other car redlights = win for you
  2.other car breaks out = win for you
  3.other car crosses center = win for you
  4.other car breaks (mechanical failure) = win for you
  5.other car fails to make call up =win for you
  6.other car disqualified by starter for failure to follow instructions or track rules.

  Okay maybe these all don't happen very often, and I would not count on any of them.  But they all do equal a winning
  situation for you.

   Maynard

[CA Duster 383]

In addition to what Maynord wrote, there is the best one.

Being able to run right on your dial in AND being able to cut a .001 light to boot.
And then beat the other guy to the strip.

[hamesdart]

well rite now im working 7 days a week to get some extra money in for the next step of the car.
Fuel cell...roll cage...fiberglass fenders and some other saftey heres and theres.
Now i was wondering what your guys opinion on roll cages were....
Steel vs chromoly.
I know jegs 12 pt is around 300 for my car and S&W chromoly was like 500
Weight savings? Worth the price???
And also what about fiberglass fenders?
I have one i need to replace anyways and for the price i can spend a little more 50$ or so and buy
two fiberglass ones and then sell my fender and get most of my money back.
thanks

[CA Duster 383]

If money is tight (and it is for most of us) I did and would go with the steel roll bar.

I purchased the S&W 8 point roll bar kit and it was resonable, about $375 shipped
to SOCAL.

I also believe the chrome moly requires tig welding vs mig welding for steel.

Note on shipping anything!  If you can have products shipped to your shop/work vs
your home it will be cheaper.  Business delivery is cheaper than home delivery.

Mine is actually considered a 10 point since I have two bars going to the bottom
of the back seat area and two into the trunk.  Both of my side bars will be swing
out since I still plan on driving it to the local weeknight car shows and the wife
is not going to climb over a seat bar and I don't like doing it anymore either.

If you go with the 12 point in either metal then you will have the front hoop and
the bars going down through or in front of your dash.

There is more info in the rule book about roll bars and what is required for each
class.

[west]

rule #1 to winning in bracket racing is traction.
2nd is consistancy,on the light and down the track (which you can't get without #1)

[hamesdart]

ok so i will probly go with the steel cage then.
I can spend the money somewere else on the car.
any big difference between s&w cages and jegs?
Now what about fiberglass fenders?
I need to replace one of mine regardless so i was thinking i would like to run fiberglass up from.
I already have a fiberglass hood and mite even go as far as front bumper as well but im debating it.
what do ya think?

[CA Duster 383]

Fiberglass is always a good way of dropping car weight and there are a couple of good
fiberglass companies, I know one is in Florida.

Buy the pieces as you can afford them, but do your research on the products and the
companies, ask questions of the companies and ask people here on the board for their
opinions.

[67 dartgts]

Hello:
STAY AWAY FROM UNLIMITED FIBERGLASS.....I bought one of their hoods pure junk....as others on here can also tell you...in fact they asked me to submit a photo of my car with their hood for their new web site, plus they would pay me $25.
Well I could not do that as it would be endorsing poor quality workmanship. 

  Maynard

[west]

my unlimited products(up22) is total junk.stay away

[hamesdart]

haha! thats what i have you guys for.
Thats the website i took a look at first.
They had the best prices... i was looking at there fenders and they were cheap. and looked decent.
But anyone know anyone else affordable?

[CA Duster 383]

Ha! Ha! Cheap parts......not for a MOPAR, now the chevy guys have no problem finding
cheap parts for their cars, but us?

OK, here is some info for you to do some research:

US Body Source  www.usbody.com  1-352-468-2203

AAR Quality Fiberglass Reproductions Inc.  www.aarqualityfiberglass.com  1-321-638-0961