Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 04, 2008, 06:48:21 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Visit ReillyMotorSports
* Home Help Search Memberlist gallery Login Register
+  The BigBlockDart Message Board
|-+  Technical
| |-+  Engine, Drivetrain
| | |-+  Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)  (Read 446 times)
warthog
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 108

BigBlockDart.Com


Email
Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« on: September 24, 2008, 09:53:20 PM »

Hey Guys,  Many of you know I have a 67 Dart mild 383, 10.comp, ported polished 452 heads. headers, etc etc (Basic stuff)  I built a 3in exhaust for it out of the summit kit using there mufflers and dumping it at the rear axle.  (I GET IT THATS ILLEGAL BLAH BLAH BLAH).  Anyways, Its really freaking loud which is fine but I was in a hurry when I built it and didn't put a crossover pipe between them.  I am a tenth from my goal et and was wondering if any of you could vouch for whether it would be worth putting in there or not.  It is my impression that the crossover pipe would be worth something in the quarter mile et.  I just wondered what your experiences have been or what?  Thanks in advance.  Dan


* dartatirp.jpg (37.17 KB, 640x480 - viewed 271 times.)
Logged
oldkimmer
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1635

BigBlockDart.Com


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2008, 11:10:47 PM »

..................The x over will quiet it down and balance the exhaust pulses....do  it........kim............
Logged

MR. Mechanic...........Panther Pink Duster    The Beast has been Unleashed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
satellite65
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1343

Long Island, NY


Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2008, 11:24:10 PM »

That's a '67? Why the side marker lights? Not that they bother me, just confused that's all.
I figured Kim already answered your question so I might as well ask one. Hope you don't mind.
Logged
warthog
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 108

BigBlockDart.Com


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2008, 11:42:32 PM »

I just haven't removed them yet.   Anybody seen an et difference with the crossover or feel it will make a difference?
Logged
383man
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 915

BigBlockDart.Com


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2008, 11:53:46 PM »

I wish I could tell you as I run an H-pipe but I never ran my 63 without it.  I also made my exh from 3" pipe I bought from Jegs and I used Dyno-Max Ultra-Flow mufflers.  It really isn't that loud as I can listen to the radio driving down the highway with no problem.  Here is a link to my car on the 62-65 site and there is a pic of the exh system I made on there.   Ron

http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo82008.html
Logged

My car , 63 Sport Fury Max Wedge wanna be......11.52 @ 116.84 so far !  Sons street car 400 Dart......11.45 @ 117.73.
Capt Jack
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1552


San Diego, CA


Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2008, 12:05:46 AM »

I went from 2.5" split duals to a 2.5" X pipe.  the car is quieter by leagues (still not enough for my tastes, but thats another matter) and runs better.  even seems to rev better.
went to an H pipe years ago on my old Cougar.  same deal.  ran better and lost a harsh raspy sound the SB Furd used to make.

its worth it.  no doubt
Logged

signet
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 895


Engines burn Fuel Motors use Electricity


WWW
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2008, 12:06:26 AM »

three inch is a good size.

if the back pressure at say 3/4 of a 1/4 mile is over 1 psi you may get some gain putting in the cross-over and retuning.

probably better to toss some weight out though for a 10th.
Logged
NYrr496
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3808

Long Island, NY


Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2008, 08:39:42 AM »

I went from straight dual 2 1/2 on my Charger to an H pipe and then to an X.  All I can really tell you is the car ran quieter with the H than without it and better with the X than the H.  By better, I mean noticeably smoother and quieter. 

Did the same thing on a Trans Am.  I noticed the car pulled better in overdrive with the X pipe.

Actually, with a properly designed exhaust, you'll probably find your tenth.  It'll be marginal, but tailpipes will help with weight distribution.
Logged

It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar.
warthog
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 108

BigBlockDart.Com


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2008, 08:56:37 AM »

Thanks to all that are taking the time to chime in.  The noise doesn't really bother me yet but it probably will as I know my neighbors are going to get to there limit with it.  I didn't think about the crossover making it more quiet.  I can actually set off car alarms with it on a regular basis.  I am going to put a clutch fan on it also.  The last car I did that to ran 14.30's and all I gained was 1 mph in the quarter.  I am hoping on this car since its faster that it will help a little little bit. 
Logged
ksdartguy
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1503


Is it really Just a 383? Well, Maybe!


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2008, 09:02:13 AM »

I know that with my 3" X and sytem to the rear bumper,
the car all but runs as quick with the exhaust closed as open.
I went a 10.82 with cutouts open and 10.85 closed.
MPH was the same 124.

Rick
Logged

69 Swinger,3.54 Dana, 400/499, Stealth heads, Crower 262/266d, .686/.696L roller,11 to 1, 950 Bigs, E85 carb.
Best so far,   10.82 @ 124mph through the mufflers.
smitty72
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 520


I'll finish it someday


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2008, 10:23:42 AM »

I used the summit 2.5 X kit stops at teh mufflers, Havent ran rear pipes yet trying to figure out how I want the pipes routed. I havent had any problem with the police yet. 
car sounds good to me
Logged
Thin White Duke
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 423

BigBlockDart.Com


Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2008, 04:51:50 PM »

With a properly designed x pipe, you can make more power than with open headers
Logged
CudaSRT8
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 895

BigBlockDart.Com

plotners@msn.com
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 01:41:25 AM »

All the different tests I've read about H vs. X , the X produced more power.   TTI said they tested them and the X made more power, so I ordered the X when I bought their system...
Logged

My Mopars:
'69 Cuda SRT8 6.1 Hemi
'78 Lil Red Express (5.7 Hemi crate waitng to go in it)
'05 Ram "GoManGo" 5.7 Hemi Daytona
'05 Jeep Grand Chickeree 4.7
"3 Hemis, no waiting!"
Fish Freak
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 116

BigBlockDart.Com


Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 05:08:09 AM »

With a properly designed x pipe, you can make more power than with open headers

If that was the case,  why doesn't Prostock run an X pipe?

Logged
caper
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 218

Cape Breton , Nova Scotia


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2008, 05:46:02 AM »

Some of the top guys in superstock do.
Logged
bOb shingler
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2927

lake worth, florida

55robert@comcast.net
Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2008, 11:40:02 AM »

they probably weighs too much.
Logged

"bOb Built" (no matter how many times it takes) lol
guzzimike
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2731


1968 Dart GT (383)


Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2008, 03:15:11 PM »

Somewhere in the archives I posted about some engineer who did a comparison.

He found that:

1) "X" offers marginally more power but you get more Harmonics.

2) "H" is slightly down on power but easier to live with.

The author chose to run an "H" crossover.

So did I, for my daily driver.



ADDED: I found rthe article...



Both H and X crossovers work at balancing and scavenging exhaust pulses about equally well..

Word is that the difference is that H crossover pipes work best at Low to Midrange RPM, wheras X work best at Midrange to High end.
   
Here's a excerpt on the difference between "H" & "X" crossovers from another site, by Professor Wizard:

 
Cross Over Exhaust Pipe Explained...       

With all this discussion about changing Mufflers and Exhausts I thought I would take a moment to explain why you have a cross over pipe (what we call an H or X pipe!), and the difference in concept between the two popular designs. This might help you decide if you which you want to go with!

The firing order of all production V8s, regardless of make, has one cylinder in each bank that will fire within 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation of another cylinder in the same bank. This occurs twice during completion of the entire firing order. These two cylinders will be exhausting almost simultaneously into the same exhaust manifold system.

Full-length four-tube headers help separate these pulses until the collector is reached. If this is a full race car running "open exhaust", you will notice the collector dumps into a short open pipe at least 2.5 times the size of the header pipes, or the header pipes dump direct without a collector. This is done to avoid the conflict of pressure caused by the timing of the 2 counter firing cylinders, which will create back pressure and degrade torque, horsepower and general performance, especially at higher RPM.

On a full exhaust system, after the header tubes dump into the collectors, the two close firing cylinders are fighting each other for space in the collector and exhaust pipe. The result is reflected pressure waves traveling back up the exhaust system, backpressure, lost power and poor economy.

At the same time two cylinders exhaust in one bank, there is no activity in the opposite bank. The traditional H-pipe equalizer allows some of the excess pressure to bleed over to the 'quiet side' of the exhaust system, resulting in some low and mid-range torque improvements. At high RPMs, however, in traditional exhaust systems, the gases cannot bleed across the H-pipe fast enough to help power significantly. Performance systems with the H pipe design, attempt to over come this by using a shorter cross over pipe which is also slightly larger in diameter as the main exhaust, then would be used in a standard exhaust.

To overcome the power loss of "over loading" the H pipe design, Exhaust manufacturers came up with the X pipe design, which features a tangentially Siamese crossover junction to synchronize exhaust pulses. The X-pipe concept is to split the flow in the crossover junction, so the pressures on both banks will be equal and pulse-free after the crossover, regardless of the rpm. Volumetric efficiency and power are therefore improved at all engine speeds. The negative aspect to the X pipe design is, because of the crisscrossing of the flow stream, harmonic pulsations will develop on some systems at certain RPMs, which will be perceived as a buzzing or humming sound.

A newer concept is a "Channel Pipe", where as two pipes are welded together in parallel with a baffle in between them which allows for mismatched pressures and pulses to cross to the idle side while allowing full, uninterrupted or redirected flow of the exhaust stream through the system.

Also... There is yet another option.... The MAC Prochamber.

It looks like a box, or a muffler where the 2 header leads enter one end and then exit the other in the location of the H or X pipe.

It is essentially a combination of all three basic designs I discussed, incorporating the crossover flow of an X pipe – the open buffer of an H pipe and the passive pulse control of a ported baffle channel pipe. MAC is the ONLY maker to have this design.

Basically it combines the exhaust into a single box, where the 2 inlets extend into the box a few inches to prevent reversion and open dumping exhaust into the box. The outlets are flush with the back of the box and there is a baffle between the sides with ported slots directing the flow of the inlets to cross to the other side. The Box holds backpressure at a steady rate, which eliminates scavenging.

There are many who believe the Prochamber will give increased performance values. Everyone using them will tell you they make a deeper yet quieter tone to the exhaust note.

===============================================================================

Some of you ask about a Cross Over on a V6.

In the case of the V6, with their “Even Firing Sequence… Having a crossover or not, is very dependent on the size of the exhaust and distance from the engine of the pipes placement. A cross over is not required if the exhaust is “tuned” to the engine. Tuned systems are nearly always without a crossover pipe because the length and diameter of the exhaust is specifically designed to work with your engine at a specified RPM Range to avoid reversion and scavenging.

On a V6 there is no need for a crossover due to the even firing engine. However, it has been proven that in some instances, a crossover pipe will decrease backpressure and allow for a higher flow. If the crossover pipe is too close to the engine, it allows the pulse timing of the opposing cylinders exhaust cycles, to crash into each other – that is to say, the pressure from a right cylinder will still be present in the left pipe when the left cylinder opens to vent. Too far a placement can create a “Pulse Vacuum”, causing diminished pressure on the venting opposing cylinder, causing decrease in torque (Called Scavenging). .

Proper design and placement of the cross over will allow a balance of pressures across the system and therein increase torque, especially at lower RPM.

Also, it has been shown that having a cross over pipe mellows out the raspy “ricer” sound that occurs above 3000rpm. So some people install them just for their “sound” value.

So, the bottom line is, you probably should have a cross over pipe on a V6 exhaust, even though it is not needed. There is minor performance gain and sound gain as well.

=====================================================================================

NOW - A couple of people ask about the Cross Over on a Motorcycle - They usually only have 2 Cylinders.

It is actually a little more technical but I’ll try to keep it simple.

In the case of 4 stroke motorcycle engines, the reason for a cross over is this...

After a cylindar fires and the piston cycles “up” - exhausts gas vents through the Exhaust valves, along with the remainder of the “explosion”, exiting the cylinder into the exhaust system.

This explosion creates 2 pulse waves… a Sonic Pulse - and a Thermal Pulse.

When the faster Sonic Pulse leaves the exhaust it has created a vacuum in the pipe behind it, which air pressure will enter the pipe to fill the vacuum. This air will collide with the Thermal Pulse and cause it to reverse. The timing of this event causes exhausted gases to be returned to the cylinder while the exhaust valve is still open therein not allowing all the spent gas to escape and also polluting the environment for your next stroke cycle with fresh air/fuel mix.

This “Event” is call Reversion and seriously degrades performance and lifetime of valves and cylinder heads.

The Cylinders fire opposite of each other – or nearly so on a Harley. So when One side is firing, the other side is idle. Having the cross over pipe allows the pulses to dissipate back and forth between the tubes instead of - or before exiting the exhaust and therein greatly diminishing the effects of reversion and so improve performance and engine life.

Yes - you see a lot of bikes with duels and no cross over. These are usually "Tuned Pipes".. meaning their length and size are tuned to work with the S/T Pulse in such a way that reversion can not return to the engine before the exhaust cycle has ended.

===============================================================================

So you ask - "Which is the BEST one to have?"

I am sorry to say - the answer to that question is purely subjective.

The anwer is... It is best to have a cross over pipe instead straight pipes... Which one purely depends on what performance and audio improvements you're looking for. There are positive and negatives with both the X and the H crossovers. Each option improves HP and Torque over not having one. But each one creates a very different sound, and effects different RPM powerbands.

Personally, I am sticking with the H because I don't like the harmonics the X creates.

< Message edited by Professor Wizard -->   
 
   
 
 
Logged

signet
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 895


Engines burn Fuel Motors use Electricity


WWW
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2008, 12:00:16 AM »

okay now lets argue politics.  drinks

thanks guzzimike
Logged
coors00
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 467

BigBlockDart.Com


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2008, 08:39:00 PM »

Was that a hidden ad?
Logged
NYrr496
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3808

Long Island, NY


Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2008, 10:22:15 PM »

I used to have a Triumph 750 Bonneville and it had a crossover pipe between the two cylinders. 
Logged

It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar.
Dono
Guest


Email
Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2008, 08:04:42 AM »

Run a line with a crayon on the bottom of the pipe off the header collector.  Start the motor and rev it to the rpm you hit the traps or shift at.  The crayon will melt off the pipe in different spots of the pipe depending on RPM or cam.  These are reversion waves in the pipe.  You want the length of the pipe off the header collector to hit one of these waves on your given motor/gear combo in the center of the X pipe.  Your combo will get the most gains out of the X pipe.  Just dropping one in there can be a waste of time.

Don.
Logged
NYrr496
BBD God
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3808

Long Island, NY


Re: Exhaust H pipe experience, ANSWER THIS 1st THEN ARGUE POLITICS:)
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 08:28:19 AM »

Doesn't Moroso make a special crayon for that? I don't think Crayola stands a chance.
Logged

It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar.
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP The BigBlockDart Message Board | Powered by SMF 1.0.5.
© 2001-2005, Lewis Media. All Rights Reserved.
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!