Paint Advice

[mopowers]

I'm starting to gather information on painting my 66 dart.  I don't feel it is necessary to strip the whole car because the body is in good shape with only one repaint in it's lifetime.  I do need filler where I filled all the trim holes.  I just planned on sanding down to metal where the holes are filled and using Rage Gold filler.

My question is, once the filler work is done, is there a paint product I can use to prime, block, and seal before using a single stage urethane.  Anyone have any thoughts about this product:

http://www.smartshoppersinc.com/AutomotiveFinishes/Clausen_Primer.html

For a top coat, I was planning on using a product like Kirker hotrod black, or Eastwood's rat rod black.  Any ideas???

[68_Val_Sedan]

any good 2 part primer will do what you want ... I would buy a gallon of 2 part high build primer from a local store ... use it to get the body right then get a quart of 2 part epoxy primer to seal the car ...

[jamesdart]

i would sand down to original paint if it was repainted.  my 69 only had one repaint but it wanst a good one. you couldnt pay me to leave that paint there. my buddy swears by this ppg high build corrosion resistance primer.

[mopowers]

any good 2 part primer will do what you want ... I would buy a gallon of 2 part high build primer from a local store ... use it to get the body right then get a quart of 2 part epoxy primer to seal the car ...

Thanks for the help.  What would happen if I sprayed the SS urethane topcoat directly over a high build primer? 

Also, would a quart of epoxy used as a sealer cover the whole car?  Does it need reducing?

What affordable brands do you recommend?

i would sand down to original paint if it was repainted. my 69 only had one repaint but it wanst a good one. you couldnt pay me to leave that paint there. my buddy swears by this ppg high build corrosion resistance primer.

That's probably a good idea.  I'll probably hit the whole car with 60 grit on a DA.  What paint would you use once you get it down to the original paint? 

[sunsetdart]

Epoxy primer and sealers are 2 different paints. The primer is meant to cover any body work or bare metal. Hi-build primers are used to cover the epoxy primers, they fill in any remaining scratches. Sealers do just that, they seal everything under them like the hi-build. Sealers are meant to go on last before the topcoats. Last but not least, there are no "affordable " primers,paints or any body shop items really. If you use cheap stuff you may pay down the road in the finish checking or cracking. Best advice is also if you start with one brand of primer like PPG, stick with that brand of primer,hi-build primer, sealer, and topcoat. The only thing you can vary is the clear. Most good urethane clears of any manufacturer will work to topcoat any good brand of topcoat color.

[eldubb440]

you mentioned your car has one repaint.........thats 2 layers including the original.............you have no idea what the repaint is..........it dont take that much to strip a car, and your car aint that big.........id go bare metal, epoxy, then rough up areas to be bodyworked. i also like to scratch the bare metal with 100 grit by hand before priming, the DA tends to "polish" the metal and may affect adhesion.......body filler will stick to both bare steel and epoxy, so it dont matter if you break thru on the rough-up.......then recaot with epoxy.........

i use epoxy primer thruout the entire process, and it fills very well;  i see no need to spend money on different primers.........

[eldubb440]

heres another example.........epoxy under and over the bodywork

[flyboy01]

A lot of people say, use only the best materials. But some of us are on a budget. You have to spend money wisely. It is OK to use budget materials. Check out Eastwood.com, they carry a line of good, cheap paints and primers. The best filler primer for the money is Featherfill G2, it will not react with paint, etch, or filler. It could be used as a final sealer, but chances are, after blocking, you will have some thin spots anyway. This is the stuff I would use over (and I did use) over existing paint. I sanded off the old repaint, but left original paint and primer since I had no rust issues. After High-build filler primer, I am using an epoxy as a sealer, wet sanding, then a base/clear over top.

Dont get me wrong, If I were to do another car, I would have the whole body blasted to bare steel, do all the bodywork over bare steel, spray epoxy, then spray G2, then sealer, then 2 stage paint. But that is not always realistic. As long as the original paint is good and the car is rust-free, the factory paint is an excellent base in many cases. As all of the work I did so far was in a single apartment garage, I was limited in what I could do and keep my activities hidden. I did what was within my budget, capabilities, and facilities. COuld I have farmed out all the work to a body shop for the same amount of money spent? No, it would ahve cost at least twice as much money.

As an alternative for a cheaper paint job, you can use a single stage paint on a budget, my old Dakota had a nice S/S paint job that looked fantastic. Eastwood sells S/S paint for about $75 a gallon, epoxy primer for about the same. You could paint your whole car for about $250 for High-build, epoxy, and S/S paint. It all depends on the level of quality you want. For a racecar, I would go with Featherfill and a coat of S/S paint, cheap about $150. For a street car as outlined, about $250. For a nice cruiser, you might be around $500 to $700. For an all out show car, it might cost you $1000 to $2000 in paint. But at that level, you need lost of body work and practice.

A good plan would be to do your firat car as a cheap paint job, then do another midgrade, and so on. No beginner will ever lay down a nice paint job on their first shot. Also, in my opinion, th cheaper paint jobs are excellent practice.

I spent about $450 for all my paint and primers, but I got some very good deal on pricing. Retail would be around $700 for the same.
$56.00 Gallon Featherfill G2 (x2)
$20.00 quart etch primer
$100.00 Gallon PPG Jet Black base (bought from closeout, reg $200/gal)
$130.00 Gallon Matrix MS-42 Clear
$120.00 Misc reducers and hardeners 

[mshred]

flyboy has given some good advice... I just finished getting my car in primer, and i didnt take my car down to bare metal either....like flyboy said, if the factory paint is in still intact and there is no rust, i would go right over....stripping it to bare metal isnt always an option for everybody, and for me it wasnt either....besides, factory paint is some of the best paint out there....factory paint jobs are tough stuff....I did all my bodywork over the factory paint, going to bare metal or atleast the primer before applying my filler....after blocking the whole car and the filler areas in 80 grit, i blocked everything with 180, used some good degreaser, and rolled on UPOL high build primer over the whole car....I gave it 3 good coats....rolling it on is a good option if you dont have the facilities to spray it...My car is still sitting in primer right now, but i plan on blocking the high build with 180 with guide coat, then filling any areas with spot putty or filler, shaping those with 80, repriming, then 180 again...once satisfied with that you can go to about 320, and then anywhere from 400-600 wet....im going to go about 400-500 wet and my painter will then be shooting a sealer over the whole car before paint...just my two cents about what im going to do...i started off knowing nothing about bodywork, and have progressed to a stage where im confident with what im doing....like flyboy said, its your first time doing it, so dont worry about it being perfect...if you want perfect, send it to a bodyshop where you will pay atleast double what your paying to do it yourself

heres a picture of my scamp right now as it sits in primer

[CudaDon65]

I'm starting to gather information on painting my 66 dart.  I don't feel it is necessary to strip the whole car because the body is in good shape with only one repaint in it's lifetime.  I do need filler where I filled all the trim holes.  I just planned on sanding down to metal where the holes are filled and using Rage Gold filler.

My question is, once the filler work is done, is there a paint product I can use to prime, block, and seal before using a single stage urethane.  Anyone have any thoughts about this product:

http://www.smartshoppersinc.com/AutomotiveFinishes/Clausen_Primer.html

For a top coat, I was planning on using a product like Kirker hotrod black, or Eastwood's rat rod black.  Any ideas???

Great post mopowers..I'm about to paint my car and this info will help.

[mopowers]

My car will definitely not be a show car.  I'll be happy no matter how it turns out.  The problem is, there are so many holes that I've filled, that a good portion of the car will be down to bare metal.  I won't strip the whole car, but a lot of it will be stripped.

I like Mark's idea of using one product through the whole process.  But I've heard epoxy paint doesn't sand or fill as well as high-build surfacer.  And since a lot of the car will be down to metal where I've done body work, can I use high-build over those spots, or do I need to shoot some epoxy over those spots?

Also, do you know if bigger tips can be bought for Harbor Freight HVLP guns?  Will this gun get the job done?

[sunsetdart]

Put the epoxy primer down first, you can put filler over the epoxy, which gives you added protection from rust. Then you can use the high build primer to fill in scratches.

[jamesdart]

have you tried the black paint stripper wheels for 4 1/2" grinder? they work great and beats the hell out of a DA with  a small compressor.  you just have to take care not to put too much heat in an area. i would definitely go to bare metal and then epoxy prime, but im no pro. you dont know what is under that old repaint. if you decide you want to paint it down the road, you dont want to strip off what you are about to do because there are already too many layers on the car.

[eldubb440]

I've heard epoxy paint doesn't sand or fill as well as high-build surfacer. 

ive never had a problem with the filling/sanding properties of epoxy primer........in my opinion; if you need a primer with a higher build than epoxy, you probably havent finished your bodywork good enough........if you need to fill scratches and imperfections that are soooo deep, the filler primer will eventually shrink and sink into them anyway..........filler primer is just another product you will have to buy, mix, store, and keep the hardner from going bad on the shelf

 

[eldubb440]

 since a lot of the car will be down to metal where I've done body work, can I use high-build over those spots, or do I need to shoot some epoxy over those spots?

think about it.........if you arent going to put epoxy (which has anti corrosive properties) over these spots, why use any epoxy at all?   

[mopowers]

Thanks Mark.  That's pretty much what the guy at the paint shop was saying.  He's got U-tech epoxy primer.

Lastly, what size tip do you shoot it with?  I think my el cheapo harbor freight guns only have 1.4 tips.

[eldubb440]

ive never gave a crap about tip sizes.......every gun has an adjustment for how much fluid it will push..........im into cheap, almost disposable chinese guns ..........ill shoot almost anything thru almost any gun   

[flyboy01]

My car will definitely not be a show car.  I'll be happy no matter how it turns out.  The problem is, there are so many holes that I've filled, that a good portion of the car will be down to bare metal.  I won't strip the whole car, but a lot of it will be stripped.

I like Mark's idea of using one product through the whole process.  But I've heard epoxy paint doesn't sand or fill as well as high-build surfacer.  And since a lot of the car will be down to metal where I've done body work, can I use high-build over those spots, or do I need to shoot some epoxy over those spots?

Also, do you know if bigger tips can be bought for Harbor Freight HVLP guns?  Will this gun get the job done?

if you have a lot of bare spots, then you will have a ton of waves. You need to fill in thos depressions, I would just mist the bare sports with some etching primer, then spray the whole car in high-build, then block the whole car. Make sure you rough up the surface with 180 before you shoot the first coat of high build. Epoxy is not neccesary for small spots. I personally would just shoot the whole car with the high build, then block the whole car with 220 to see where you are, then you can determine if you need filler, or maybe just a few more coats of high build. It is ok to shoot small areas with the high build.

Also, my advice, if you dont have a LARGE air compressor, get a LVLP gun, they are designed to shoot high volume like and HVLP, but use a lot less air, so you can paint continually without pressure drop. I like the Astro EVO4014, it was about $90 shipped, it came highly recommended. You can also buy it with two tips for about $140.

This is where I bought my gun.
http://www.spraygunworld.com/products/Astro/index.htm

Oh yeah, epoxy is hard to sand because it tends to gum up sandpaper. If you let it dry for a while first and wet sand it, you should not have any problems.

[mopowers]

Thanks flyboy.  I have a decent compressor.  It's an older 60 gallon unit with a 1 1/2hp motor.  I'm going to hook my gun to it this weekend to see how it does.  If it struggles, I may hook my other compressor to it and see how that works.  If not, I'll look into that LVLP gun.  Thanks.

When you see a pressure requirement on a HVLP gun (like say 20lbs), is that the pressure at the gun with the trigger pulled, or not pulled?

[68_Val_Sedan]

thats the pressure with the trigger pulled ...

[flyboy01]

Thanks flyboy.  I have a decent compressor.  It's an older 60 gallon unit with a 1 1/2hp motor.  I'm going to hook my gun to it this weekend to see how it does.  If it struggles, I may hook my other compressor to it and see how that works.  If not, I'll look into that LVLP gun.  Thanks.

When you see a pressure requirement on a HVLP gun (like say 20lbs), is that the pressure at the gun with the trigger pulled, or not pulled?

Trigger pulled. Here is a good test that someone showed me..

1. Hook of the gun with everything, drier, regulator, hoses, etc that you will use when painting.

2. pull the trigger, adjust the pressure to what you want (20psi ?).

3. keep pulling the trigger (with nothing in the cup) untill the compressor cycles on.

4. Once the compressor kicks off, you can start the test.

5. pull the trigger and time how long you can have it pulled before the compressor kicks on.
 
6. keep the trigger pulled, keep timing until either one of two things will happen, (a) the compressor kicks back off, or (b) the pressure at the gun drops more than 1 lb.

If the compressor kicks off while you have the trigger pulled, then no worries mate, you have more compressor power (volume) than the gun needs. If it does not shut off, but the pressure starts to drop, then this is your max spray time. You will have to stop for a few minutes to let the compressor recharge. If you are spraying metallics, candy, or pearl, be very mindfull of pressure, any variations in pressure can change how it looks when sprayed. Solid colors are easier. You can dissasemble a car and paint peices individually. metallics need the car to be one piece and the distance to the panel needs to be constant. also, you have to spray the panels in their finished configuration, gravity affects the metal flakes. If you open the trunk lid, then it will look different when closed.

Now the good news, if your spray time is short, keep in mind that as you paint panels, you will be stopping when you move to other positions, this will alow the compressor to catch up, and extend your time by that amount.

I have a small 27 gal tank with a big oil-type 2 hp compressor, with my LVLP, i can spray for 5 minutes before the compressor kicks on, and 14 minutes until pressure drop. Realistically, one coat of paint ashould take less than 14 min.

One last caviat I learned the hard way. Be VERY careful with pot life on high-build or epoxy primer. You can end up with a gun permanently clogged with it. If the pot life is 45 min, start cleaning your gun at 30 min, it will take you 10-15 min to clean it. you dont want that stuff to harden inside the gun.

[mopowers]

Thanks fly.  I'll have to give the test a try.  Great idea and thanks for posting it!

[375InStroke]

Epoxy primer and sealers are 2 different paints. The primer is meant to cover any body work or bare metal. Hi-build primers are used to cover the epoxy primers, they fill in any remaining scratches. Sealers do just that, they seal everything under them like the hi-build. Sealers are meant to go on last before the topcoats.

I shall disagree.  Direct quote from the PPG DP epoxy primer tech sheet:
"DPLF Epoxy Primer mixed 2:1 with
DP401LF or DP402LF Catalyst provides
an excellent corrosion–resistant primer.
This primer provides excellent adhesion to
many types of properly prepared metal,
fiberglass and aluminum substrates, as well
as plastic fillers. DPLF Epoxy Primer may
also be used as a sealer and topcoated with
most PPG Refinish products."

[fourspeed]

I like to go to sand to bare metal with 80 grit on a DA. Then prime with DPLF, then do body work, then use an epoxy filler primer and block it, then a sealer, then the paint. But that's just me. A lot of people put filler right on the metal, and a lot of people use an etching primer.

[flyboy01]

375InStroke: Yes thats exactly what the Epoxy I bought says too. Makes sense, epoxy is a very good sealer as it seals out moisture.

fourspeed: You really have to go by what the manufacturer of the paint or filler says. Evercoat says their filler should go on bare metal, and not over etch because the acid in the etch may react with the filler, and the Featherfill G2 version of the high-build is specifically made to go over etch, some types dont work as well. The paint manufacturer should be your guide as to what they recommend.

[375InStroke]

Evercoat says their filler should go on bare metal, and not over etch because the acid in the etch may react with the filler...

PPG says etch should not be applied over filler.

[fourspeed]

I wasn't clear in my post.

I don't use an etching primer. I also don't apply filler to bare metal (in welded areas).

What I meant to say is that some people would disagree with one or the other. My method is not the only way. It might not even be the best way, but it works for me.

[eldubb440]

this is why i keep it simple.......i find one good epoxy that does it all..........way too many paint products out there 

[CARS]

Thanks Mark.  That's pretty much what the guy at the paint shop was saying.  He's got U-tech epoxy primer.

When I was at product training last year we were told that the new formula of U-Tech epoxy is NOT to be used under filler.
This new epoxy primer doesn't need to be scuffed to be re-coated with itself.  The body filler must have something in it that softens the primer 
I use PPG's Omni Epoxy primer and I use it on bare metal all the way to final sealing.  But paint techniques are like @ssholes.