Turbo?

[TEN5DART]

What would be a good turbo setup to run on a street/strip 440? Twins or single? Also what type of turbo/turbos

[moparteacher]

Garrett offers a large selection of turbos. They are sized by displacement. I would contact a manufacturer.

[67devildart]

I have personally noticed that people use as many as they have engine space to allow.  TO ME, it would seem that 2 or more would be better than one.  Using two smaller ones you're not having to turn one large impeller as hard, could spool up more RPMs.  I noticed this especially in the Diesel field, when Cat came out w/ the twin turbo ACERT engine and completely blew away all the other Diesel engines.  THE DOWNFALL THOUGH was they were in parallel, so if one blew, you HAD to replace them both.....  I've heard suggestions for a cheap turbo setup was to find 2 2.2/2.5 Mopar turbos and run them.....

[moparteacher]

2.2turbos abound at the wrecking yard. Honda kids havn't found out yet.

[67devildart]

2.2turbos abound at the wrecking yard. Honda kids havn't found out yet.

THANK GOD!

[razorback]

twins are more to help lag response, two smaller are easier to push than one big one. if i go turbo im going for a bigger one. i think you would be better off with a large single. like the thumper 100-110.

[yambra]

The 2.2 turbos are way too small for a big block unless you use four of them, which in my opinion would be ridiculous.  The biggest motor I'd use the turbos from a 2.2 on a 318 and that would still need two of them.  And as far as it being easier for the motor to turn two small turbos than a single big turbo it's exactly true.  If you think about it if you were going to run two turbos that put out the same cfm as a big one you don't really gain any faster spool.  You might be using turbos half the size but you're also only using have the motor to turn it.  Also faster rpm on the turbos don't mean more power.  The faster the turbo spins the more heat it generates making your intake air hotter which would make the air less dense and make the engine more prone to detonate.  So it would be better to find a turbo that would be able to boost a little more than you want it to so you're not maxing out the turbo.  As far as if it would be better to run a single or twin turbo set up I would lean toward twin.  The reason would be for the cost of the turbos.  If you could pick up a couple of turbos off the Rams cummings engine you could boost up to 10psi on a 440 that's not going to do more than 6500 rpm.  And even though it can boost up to 10psi I'd suggest boosting 8psi.  And thoses turbos would be a lot cheaper than going out and paying a grand a piece for something aftermarket.

Brad

[ttmott]

Turbochargers are dear to my heart; I've been burning down motors with turbos for quite a few years now.  With the advent of EFI the turbocharger has really matured and, in fact, dominated the dynos with huge horsepower and torque figures with relatively small engines.  My current build that these folks on this forum have been a help with is a twin turbocharged hemi E-Body.  The build should produce in excess of 1200 hp and over 1000 lb ft torque reliably.

If you are building for the street twin turbochargers are prefered due to the fast spool and streetable torque production the smaller turbine will give.  If for the track you can opt for twins or now they are building huge huffers  like this one on the dyno http://videos.streetfire.net/hottestvideos/1/9AB8E11C-B2B7-4D34-A23B-22272D9A953D.htm.  Anyway you look at it EFI is pretty much manditory to manage the potential of the new turbochargers.

Like anything else the turbocharger is an integral part of the engine build.  First what is the purpose and goal of the combination then do the math on the engine specifics (mass flow, desired inlet pressure, temperatures, and on and on) which will get you in the ball park on turbine and compressor sizing.  I have a quick and dirty Excel calculator that I use for basic turbine and compressor sizing that I can send you; no problem.  Probably the most important thing to do is to "bone up" on modern turbocharging; understand the compressor maps and how to calculate mass air flow for an engine and the specifics to tuning a forced induction fueling systems.

I like the Turbonetics and Garrett systems.  Both companies now have ball bearing turbochargers which take turbocharging to the next level.

Tom

[Zac]

How hard would it be to build a twin turbo big block on propane? I know i would have to build headers but i was planning on it any way. I figured if i just left a stock 400 long block with low compression and put 8- 10lbs boost it would make up for the loss of switching to propane.  Do propane carbs have the same problems as gasoline ones when they are under boost? Thanks.

[268darts]

Here's a  link to the Mopar turbo board on    http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?board=21.0
Another to some Yahoo groups http://gatorsuperchargers.net/yahoo_groups/yahoo_groups.htm
I just bought a book (21st century turbo) off of ebay that is Mopar specific that is very good. This guy has been doing turbos/superchargers since the 50's. He is more of a boost/carburator man. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/INSTALL-A-USED-SUPERCHARGER-TURBO-ON-A-MOPAR-6-OR-V-8_W0QQitemZ8058800327QQcategoryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem  Excellent value.
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell is a good book too. He's a little more into boost/FI systems.  Ebay has some really good deals on turbos that you should check out. Don't buy one until you know what you wanna do. And twins is the only way to go. 

[FastmOp]

Something like this?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Dave_n_68_383S]

a procharger is easier and a heck of a lot cooler..

[TrxR]

Dont knock a carb for a forced induction application. Go to Turbomustangs.com and see why I say that . There are some over there building big numbers and idle like stock and have great street manners with a properly built carb. When I mean big numbers I mean 1200HP out of 302ci:)

[FastmOp]

$100.00 rubber bands SUCK

[ttmott]

Oh yea, no knocking the carbs I have a couple big power twin turbo toys that are draw through carb setups but injection takes turbocharging to the next level.  Amazing throttle response, early torque delivery, turbo spoolup tricking, better fuel balance which means easier on parts, etc, etc.  I would put a pic of my favorite old style draw through here but it is neither a car nor a Mopar; that would be unethical..

Tom

[yambra]

I would agree garrett and turbonetics being good.  I don't know about garrett but the turbonetics ball bearing turbos are rebuildable.  Last I heard the garrett bb turbos weren't rebuildable.  The reason I made mention of the turbos from the ram cummings is because you could pick them up cheap.  You could find guys selling them because they up graded to a bigger turbo.  By the way the turbo they use on the rams are by Holset.  If you want to check them out the model is hx35w.  It has a T3 flange bolt pattern, so you wouldn't have to find a weird flange like the ford power stroke turbo.  If you have the money go with a bb turbo.  They spool up faster than the friction bearings(the standard).  So you could run a bigger turbo and have it spool up like a smaller turbo.  As far as carb or efi.  Again if you have the money I'd suggest efi.  You have so much more control with efi since you can tune everything from idle to wot.  With a carb you'll get good power, but you'll probably run richer than you need to be while cruising.  So what kind of power are you looking for?  How much are you concerned with the cost of things?  If you're on a budget like me, I've learned a lot of cheaper ways to build things like this.

[tt440]

I went with the twins figuring they would be easier to install in the limited space of a 440 duster than a big single with its huge down pipe etc. Didn't really want to cut the fenderwells if i didn't have to.

[Dono]

Now that is realy realy cool TT440.......    How flat its the torque curve?

[tt440]

Not really sure, had some bad valve train issues when it was in the car, then took it out to sort it out on the dyno and promptly kicked a rod out the side of the block Was making over 800 foot pounds at 4000 rpm on a very conservative set up.

[razorback]

wow, thats a nice set up 440.

[268darts]

Why Turbo?  http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=57851.0
  Viper Single Turbo pull 93 octane and E85
THe power is very smooth and it is a lot easier to get 900rwhp to the ground now than it was getting 750rwhp with the supercharger. 

Now how cool is that? 

Hey tt440,
How conservative is a conservative 440?

[pandamarie]

Use to be a web site called twinturbos.com it was done by a guy in my neighbor hood that has a 71 charger 440 with twin turbos street legal, but with slicks he is running in the 8s. I know his is fuel injected and has posted HP#s in the 1300 range at the local chassis dyno and he says its not turned up all the way to 21 lbs of boost. He runs out at Sacramento raceway, I will have to stop by his shop and see if he still has his web site going, havent seen it in awhile. There are still videos of his car floating around on the net, look for 71 charger or 71 twin turbo charger.

[Think3205]

The 2.2 turbos are way too small for a big block unless you use four of them, which in my opinion would be ridiculous.  The biggest motor I'd use the turbos from a 2.2 on a 318 and that would still need two of them.  And as far as it being easier for the motor to turn two small turbos than a single big turbo it's exactly true.  If you think about it if you were going to run two turbos that put out the same cfm as a big one you don't really gain any faster spool.  You might be using turbos half the size but you're also only using have the motor to turn it.  Also faster rpm on the turbos don't mean more power.  The faster the turbo spins the more heat it generates making your intake air hotter which would make the air less dense and make the engine more prone to detonate.  So it would be better to find a turbo that would be able to boost a little more than you want it to so you're not maxing out the turbo.  As far as if it would be better to run a single or twin turbo set up I would lean toward twin.  The reason would be for the cost of the turbos.  If you could pick up a couple of turbos off the Rams cummings engine you could boost up to 10psi on a 440 that's not going to do more than 6500 rpm.  And even though it can boost up to 10psi I'd suggest boosting 8psi.  And thoses turbos would be a lot cheaper than going out and paying a grand a piece for something aftermarket.

Brad

how about 8? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLfujQrr2yA

of course... a chebbie

[Midnight Special]

MATT YOU BETTER JUMP IN HERE..............HE HAS A PT114 TURBO 7.5 COMPRESSION ON PUMP GAS....1400 rwhp ON 12# BOOST IF I RECALL CORRECTLY

[yambra]

1400rwhp?  I'm guess this isn't on a stock iron block?

[Tubbed440]

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65312.msg677273#msg677273

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=96517.msg946390#msg946390

There, that should keep you busy for a while.

[NYrr496]

Wow. Being a diesel guy for all these years, you guys are getting me thinking about turbos for my roadrunner. This would be all I need to do. Make it take longer and cost more.

BTW, the 3516 Cats at my job have FOUR turbos each. They're badass. They make 2300 horsepower at 1800 RPM. They're not even breathing hard when they're carrying 1000 amps each.

[jyrki]

A couple of years ago, we started our new project adn decided to go with turbos. At many points, I thought weather this is really worth it. Some parts we needed were not available, and had to wait for quite a while, causing about one years delay overall, there was a lot of construction, and a lot of money spent. In theory, it should be very easy to produce power, but when you consider that you must have everything in the car that can support the power, it starts costing $$$. If you plan for example making 1200 hp, and start thinking about trans, driveshaft, rear axle, fuel supply requirements, the parts that used to be available from every parts retailer and cost 100$, are now available only from special places and cost 1000$ or more. Looking at how much money flew out of my wallet for the engine parts alone; I could have bought a used Pro Stock engine for way less and drive the car within a week. After about one year of building, ordering parts, building again, the car was ready to run. Many of the things done were made "just to get the damn thing run, and do them better later". And finally it did. Our initial goal was to get the big car run at least as quick as our old street A-bodies, 9.46 and 144 mph. For the first time it run at the pits, was driven to tech and directly to the line. First run was 12.48/84 mph, just slightly trying how it "feels". Next run, full throttle on second gear, 9.99/146 mph. Within a few runs learnign how to drive the thing, we reached the goal, 9.30/148 mph with no sweat. Now we have a total of maybe 20 runs, not much tuning, have not kept any log or anything like that, and have now run 8.41/162 mph, on pump gas and on DOT tires (1.35 60 ft). The engine runs so rich, that without MSD it would propably die within a few seconds, we haven't even once checked the ignition timing properly, it's just the way it was put for the first start, and we have still about 10 psi of boost left. And consider, that a lot of things could be planned and executed way better. Now we are at a point, where the car must meet SFI25.5 specs before going to the track next time, it needs a parachute, the car must be lightened considerably to meet the SFI25.5 spec maximum weight of 3600 lbs etc. etc...., another 10 000$ this winter. So, don't say you weren't warned!      http://kuvablogi.com/blog/745/1

[Tubbed440]

A couple of years ago, we started our new project adn decided to go with turbos. At many points, I thought weather this is really worth it. Some parts we needed were not available, and had to wait for quite a while, causing about one years delay overall, there was a lot of construction, and a lot of money spent. In theory, it should be very easy to produce power, but when you consider that you must have everything in the car that can support the power, it starts costing $$$. If you plan for example making 1200 hp, and start thinking about trans, driveshaft, rear axle, fuel supply requirements, the parts that used to be available from every parts retailer and cost 100$, are now available only from special places and cost 1000$ or more. Looking at how much money flew out of my wallet for the engine parts alone; I could have bought a used Pro Stock engine for way less and drive the car within a week. After about one year of building, ordering parts, building again, the car was ready to run. Many of the things done were made "just to get the damn thing run, and do them better later". And finally it did. Our initial goal was to get the big car run at least as quick as our old street A-bodies, 9.46 and 144 mph. For the first time it run at the pits, was driven to tech and directly to the line. First run was 12.48/84 mph, just slightly trying how it "feels". Next run, full throttle on second gear, 9.99/146 mph. Within a few runs learnign how to drive the thing, we reached the goal, 9.30/148 mph with no sweat. Now we have a total of maybe 20 runs, not much tuning, have not kept any log or anything like that, and have now run 8.41/162 mph, on pump gas and on DOT tires (1.35 60 ft). The engine runs so rich, that without MSD it would propably die within a few seconds, we haven't even once checked the ignition timing properly, it's just the way it was put for the first start, and we have still about 10 psi of boost left. And consider, that a lot of things could be planned and executed way better. Now we are at a point, where the car must meet SFI25.5 specs before going to the track next time, it needs a parachute, the car must be lightened considerably to meet the SFI25.5 spec maximum weight of 3600 lbs etc. etc...., another 10 000$ this winter. So, don't say you weren't warned!      http://kuvablogi.com/blog/745/1

LMAO!  Some of us would kill to have that problem!!!   "Well darn, we run so fast that we have to upgrade the car again.  Stupid turbos!!!!!!! "

[Midnight Special]

A couple of years ago, we started our new project adn decided to go with turbos. At many points, I thought weather this is really worth it. Some parts we needed were not available, and had to wait for quite a while, causing about one years delay overall, there was a lot of construction, and a lot of money spent. In theory, it should be very easy to produce power, but when you consider that you must have everything in the car that can support the power, it starts costing $$$. If you plan for example making 1200 hp, and start thinking about trans, driveshaft, rear axle, fuel supply requirements, the parts that used to be available from every parts retailer and cost 100$, are now available only from special places and cost 1000$ or more. Looking at how much money flew out of my wallet for the engine parts alone; I could have bought a used Pro Stock engine for way less and drive the car within a week. After about one year of building, ordering parts, building again, the car was ready to run. Many of the things done were made "just to get the damn thing run, and do them better later". And finally it did. Our initial goal was to get the big car run at least as quick as our old street A-bodies, 9.46 and 144 mph. For the first time it run at the pits, was driven to tech and directly to the line. First run was 12.48/84 mph, just slightly trying how it "feels". Next run, full throttle on second gear, 9.99/146 mph. Within a few runs learnign how to drive the thing, we reached the goal, 9.30/148 mph with no sweat. Now we have a total of maybe 20 runs, not much tuning, have not kept any log or anything like that, and have now run 8.41/162 mph, on pump gas and on DOT tires (1.35 60 ft). The engine runs so rich, that without MSD it would propably die within a few seconds, we haven't even once checked the ignition timing properly, it's just the way it was put for the first start, and we have still about 10 psi of boost left. And consider, that a lot of things could be planned and executed way better. Now we are at a point, where the car must meet SFI25.5 specs before going to the track next time, it needs a parachute, the car must be lightened considerably to meet the SFI25.5 spec maximum weight of 3600 lbs etc. etc...., another 10 000$ this winter. So, don't say you weren't warned!      http://kuvablogi.com/blog/745/1

  HEY TURBO MATT, MATT, MATT---WHERE IS YOU?