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440 block pics and drilling

154K views 151 replies 49 participants last post by  bOb shingler 
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#1 ·
Here's some pic's for you guys that want to Modify for block for better oiling. Mopars main oil gallery is roughly a 9/16 bore all the way thru the block on both sides. The bad deal is every lifter passes thru each gallery meaning, you have 16 points of leakage, not including a massive leak in the # 4 main, which feds #4 cam journal, which is timed, to feed each rockershaft assy. All the holes in this late 77 440 block were a 1/4, these are the feed holes that come down from the passenger "Main" oil gallery. As you can see in the pic, #2, #3, #4, #5, are fed off of the main oil gallery. #1 is fed off the front which intersects the pass over passage that is cast into the front of the block from the oil pump pad.

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#77 ·
I have done that mod with a drill bit to about a dozen blocks, with no breakage. I start with a short bit, and then change in to long one. But each time, the drilling is a bit "exiting". I'll start doing these mods when the engine will see more than 6500 rpm. Don't know wether it really is needed, but it shouldn't harm anything either. I also drill for 1/2" pick up, and radius the corner like Frank described. Also, for some reason the B blocks have a smaller diameter passage from the corner to teh pump face; I drill that out to RB size too, and fit the pump to the holes. If using a solid cam, I block the oil for the drivers side lifters pushing an aluminum plug to the channel from the rear of the block. That way, if you happen to experience a valvetrain failure on that side, you will not loose oil pressure. I have used inexpensive mopar performance hemi pick ups, and built the oil pans out of the stock ones around them. It's an inexpensive method, and seems to work very well.
 
#78 ·
Steve, with engine oil being a liquid, wouldn't the pressure of the entire oiling system be the same at all parts of the system at all times? Clearly there is something going on with the #4 main, but why wouldn't pressure drop in the entire oiling system? Would this testing you're talking about be done on a running engine, or would an engine without compression rings be rotated by an electric motor at several thousand rpm to do the testing? Would the oil be blocked off to parts of the engine to isolate one part at a time to see how much oil that part of the engine demands? I don't see how this could be done since a spinning motor needs oil to all parts. I like testing things myself so I would know exactly what's going on instead of just guessing, but the cost of equipment is so expensive. How many people have dynos and flow benches in their garage. Like you said, it's not like you can take Cessna's equipment home with you. These are just questions. You said my previous post pissed you off. Why. At the end I said I didn't know and asked what you thought. I wasn't criticizing you.
 
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#80 ·
vitamindart said:
actually steve my heads are oiled externally i'm running indy heads w/harland sharps
That is much better! And a much better approach to oil the rockers, saves number 6 and 7 rod bearings since it is getting the oil straight from the main oil galley, which is a huge 9/16 hole. Most of the guys that bush the rocker use a LONG 5/8 reamer to the main oil galley, then bush the lifters . If I were doing the external lines to oil the rockers, I'de flip the number 4 cam over 180 degree's so it is not force fed up to the base of the heads and drill a .250 in the cam bearing using the 1/4 feed in the block ,to close it off and deburr the hole. Are you using a solid cam or solid roller? If so, you can drive a expansion plug in the drivers side oil galley and drill a small .090 hole in it just to give some lube to the lifters. It's no big secret, It's been known about this for along time. I would prefer to bush all the lifters to help dial in the lifter bores and close off the drivers side oil galley, that knocks out 16 massive leaks down to 8. Oil drain from the heads would lube the lifters. And you can drill the block between the lifters with a 1/8 inch bit so the oil cam, it drains right on the cam lobes. I'll post a pic of that one tomorrow. What kind of oil pump and do you have a adjustable oil pressure regulator on your pump? If not, here is a pic of the Moroso one
 
#81 ·
I have two ideas as how to improve the #4 main and top end oiling situation.
1. Use a fully grooved #4 main bearing and regular half groove on the rest. Many people don't like using fully grooved bearings on the street due to the reduced bearing support on the crank. This would reduce that support by only a small percentage compared to using fully grooved bearings on all the mains.
2. Block off oil to the heads and plumb lines to the rocker shafts like the Indy heads. Steve likes this one, and why couldn't it be done to any head? Just install a fitting in the end of the rocker shafts and a fitting through the head and route lines to the back of the block.
 
#82 ·
OK, now you guys have confused the hell out of me.

This question is for Steve DeTar only.

What should I do for a 400-430 hp 383 (never see over 6000 rpm) with stock stroke, cast crank, cast pistons, and an HV oil pump. What bearings should I use, I want to avoid burning up the main and rod bearings. Should I just leave it as is?
 
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#83 ·
flyboy01, I sent you a PM.
Here's another one of those old mods that probably aren't necessary but I know it helps the return oil coming out of the heads.  I drill a #30 hole inbo of the oil galley on each side and touch it with a countersink.  With a old junk cam installed, you can position the holes right above each lobe. 
 
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#85 ·
You have a constant flow of return, guide it where it can make the most of return.  You can use this on solids or hydraulic's. Since some people don't like the added cost of removing the innner spring when they break in cams,  no matter what, follow the cam manufactors reconmendations. It might help,  Steve D.
 
#87 ·
yeah steve i'm running a solid roller can you post a pic of the plug in the drivers side , the oil pump is a milodon i wasn't useing the adjustable regulator but do have it is it really needed to flip the #4 cam bearing in my aplication since i have indy heads and the don't use those oil passages to the heads they are just sealed with the head gasket
 
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#88 ·
You don't HAVE to flip the cam bearing, but there is a potential for it to leak there at the head gasket, even though it's blocked off in your head.  Why heat it with the water jacket?  You could tap the rocker feeds in the valley area and use a set screw.  If you drive a expansion plug in the drivers side oil galley......bushed lifter bores or not, the pressure will be up since it is not leaking 8 lifters.  You could purge some of this pressure by drilling a .090 hole in the expansion plug to drop the pressure, most of the flow would still get to the mains and rods.  The .090 hole is enough is just lube the lifters, which is a restriction in the stock sytem, with a solid lifter cam.    Is your lifters bushed?  Ciscodog did this to index his lifters to the cam to get a perfect geometry and to reduce leaks and friction.  I just don't like 100psi at full throttle, makes filters ballon and blow up if it's a cheapy.  I prefer 60 to 75 at WOT and 40 to 50 at idle.  This Milodon, is it a dual pickup or single?  If so, what size is the inside diameter?  And, a really good set of heads that you have, how hard are you going to zing it?  What oil mods have you done?  Sorry vitamindart for this being so long, what main bearings are you going with?  and are you using the spray bars in Indy's valve covers to keep the spring cool?   If you flip the #4 cam bearing, don't forget to drill the 1/4 stock feed hole in it and do a deburr on the bearing.  Let me know, and thank you,,,,, Steve D.
 
#89 ·
its a sinlge line pick up, i have a -12 hose on it (i would use a 1/2 internal but who ever drilled and tapped the block was cross eyedand don't trust it to seal well enough) , haven't got the bearings yet was thinking full groove,wide??,no spray bars just shaft oiling.no the lifters are not bushed(not shure anyone local can do it right or what it would cost)

the only mods to the block are opening the main feeds to 9/32 and #4 to 5/16 ,will probly drill return drains as you suggested looks like a great way to get oil to the cam. the expansion plug trick makes me nervous (don't know why )

not shure how far i will spin it ,kind of thinking a 493 around 10 to 1 , i have a 600 lift roller 267/269 dur @.050 hoping to make it a little more pump gas freindly and still get in the 10's and maybe a little spray every so often

thanks for all the help Steve its much appreciated

Dominic
 
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#90 ·
375inStroke ...   Steve, with engine oil being a liquid, wouldn't the pressure of the entire oiling system be the same at all parts of the system at all times?  Clearly there is something going on with the #4 main, but why wouldn't pressure drop in the entire oiling system?

Sure the pressure would remain constant if the oil pump is rated above the leak rate, but the flow would'nt.  Picture a tube 2 feet long, we will call it a manifold, in the tube you have 5 holes.  You have a 1/4 hole, a 5/16 hole, a 3/8 hole, a 7/16 hole and a 1/2 hole.  Lets throw a gauge on it and say we have 60 psi of manifold pressure...like a running engine.  Since pressure and flow are related, without a resistance, we would not have any pressure thru out the system.  Kinda like chucking a lifter at 6500rpm...drop in pressure= lots of flow.  The #4 main is the killer since it has to do double duty, since it has to feed the #4 main, feed both connecting rods,  feed the #4 cam bearing and feed both sides of the rocker arms  which are vented via the atomosphere. There is not alot of resistance to keep or hold the liquid in...  It's hydraulics, it's a straight drop by the time it comes out of the rockers.  That is why I liked the idea of feeding the rockers off of the Main oil galley, it don't take away from a certain bearing.   Indy does this with external lines, and not off of #4 main.  There is too much off that one circuit.  Kind of like pulling 50 amps thru a 30 amp circuit breaker if you know what I mean.  I know some builders that tap the oil feeds to the rockers in the face of the deck and insert a set screw and drill a .125 hole in the set screw to limit the amount of flow to the rockers....just to keep most of the oil on the #4 main.  Sure it can help, but I am not completely confident of "how much"  the rockers need for demand are....they are all built different.  Hope this helps and thank you, Steve D.
 
#91 ·
I see now. It's not so much as how much volume and pressure the oil pump produces, but how much volume of oil can enter an area compared to how much is leaving the other end. If one thinks of the orifice plugs for the front clutch, it all makes sense, just that the orifices are larger. I was thinking of the oil passages as one big manifold. It's amazing how much oil can flow through .001" clearance. So does the top end just need to be kept wet with oil, and the crank bearings need constant pressure?
 
#92 ·
I believe, the rocker types, that have aluminum or iron directly against the rocker shaft, would like to have some oil pressure. However, the way the mopar engines get teh oil to the upstairs, this may not be the case after all. The oil upstairs comes through a small passage through the camshaft, when teh holes in the cam bearing and cam lines up. That's once in every two crankshaft revolutions, for about 20 cam degrees or so. Pretty little, for all the valvetrain, I think. full rollerized rockers do not need oilpressure, they can be even used with spraybars inside the valvecovers just squirting oil. In my case, I have direct head oiling through hoses, and I have .040" diameter restrictors in the lines. Still seems to get more than enough of oil upstairs.
 
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#93 ·
jyrki is right about the timed oiling on the cam shaft. I just hate the pulses on the # 4 main and the 6 & 7 connecting rods. Pressure builds up, then drops, most flow goes to the rockers, not the connecting rods. Combine this with the firing order of a BB mopar, #4 takes a beating. Runs hotter and damages bearings to the connecting rods. Here's some #4 mains
 
#94 ·
I have a story about oil requirements of the rockers. I have a '64 273 GT Dart with 72,000 miles when I got it. I adjusted the valves, but after a while, it made noise again. After repeated adjusting, I noticed that only one valve was getting loose. It also had most of the ball on the adjuster gone. When I went to replace the adjuster, I took the shaft off and found that the oil hole to that rocker, #2 exhaust, was missing. There were only 7 oil holes on that shaft. Could this engine have been running for, by this time, 80,000 miles or so without oil on this one rocker? The rocker and shaft looked OK. I drilled a hole to match the others, sanded the shaft and rocker with 400 grit paper, installed a new adjuster and pushrod, and it runs fine to this day. I guess oil from the neighboring rocker was enough to lube the rocker, but nothing was getting to the pushrod, so that and the adjuster wore out.
 
#98 ·
Well, I just got back from the machine shop; am having the pickup tapped to 1/2" NPT and the passageway above it brought up to Hemi size. Re-reading this thread, another question comes to mind:

Steve DeTar said:
jyrki is right about the timed oiling on the cam shaft. I just hate the pulses on the # 4 main and the 6 & 7 connecting rods. Pressure builds up, then drops, most flow goes to the rockers, not the connecting rods. Combine this with the firing order of a BB mopar, #4 takes a beating. Runs hotter and damages bearings to the connecting rods. Here's some #4 mains
Okay... let me think... 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2... that'd put them 180 degrees apart, right? How bad is that?

I mean, if we're looking at crank harmonics, that 2-1, 4-3 and 6-5 double hits on the same journal have to make it ring and bounce, right? I can't imagine that the oil flow to the rod bearings sees a change with the firing order (doesn't mean it doesn't... just that I haven't imagined it), but what I can imagine is that oil pressure to #4 main and #6-7 rod bearings dropping off twice per 720 degree cycle.

How 'bout blocking that corny hole in the camshaft that shuttles oil to the block decks, and grooving the journal instead? Then you'd probably have to restrict the oiling at the deck going to the heads so that all the oil in the motor didn't end up in the valve covers... You'd get rid of that 'dry season' that happens when the hole thru the cam lines up with the passage that goes up to the heads - a little oil all the time instead of a whole lot once at each head every 2 crank revolutions.

-bill
 
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#100 ·
acpat said:
steve what about putting restrictors in the cam journal feeds. ?
You could, just like they do on small blocks. But, what heads? And what about the #4 feed to the rockers? If you were to use some higher end aftermarket head that fed the rockers with external oil lines, I would do something smaller than the stock .250 size.
 
#101 ·
Seems to me the groove on the cam journal stops the pulsing,as you have full pressure
around the journal and up the passages to the heads continously. I havent had a motor up in the 7000+
range for long periods, but what about the old nascar hemis? My old Hemi RR would turn 7500 easy.
It had no oil mods, just a deep pan and HV pump. ::)

Rick
 
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